India Team Discussion

[ShamiLoverGlipGlops]

That's Pakistan-ish. Agree on the selection bias tbh, seeing Shami left out after performing so well, but Bhuvi ain't bad to make it a strong case.

Sharma group and Kohli group sounds shocking, as far as they show on screen, they seem to be good friends.

I personally hope to see the duo of coaches being sacked for people like Zak to come in.

Don't term it that way but I hope we don't become an anti muslim team with the government taking over, literally it would sound cheap.

That literally sounds dumb. I literally have lost appetite on discussing this topic now after reading that. Do not fall prey to social media my friend, you are smart.

 

[AliB]

That literally sounds dumb. I literally have lost appetite on discussing this topic now after reading that. Do not fall prey to social media my friend, you are smart.

Not a prey to social media but it might become a trend in the future, I hope not.

 

[SaiSrini]

That's Pakistan-ish. Agree on the selection bias tbh, seeing Shami left out after performing so well, but Bhuvi ain't bad to make it a strong case.

Sharma group and Kohli group sounds shocking, as far as they show on screen, they seem to be good friends.

I personally hope to see the duo of coaches being sacked for people like Zak to come in.

Don't term it that way but I hope we don't become an anti muslim team with the government taking over, literally it would sound cheap.

How did this line come about after reading that article? Nowhere in that article was anything close to this mentioned.

I really think this is time for us to look for a foreigner as the coach. Someone like Tom Moody or Stephen Fleming are ideal candidates.

 

[Bigby Wolf]

https://www.dnaindia.com/cricket/re...th-virat-kohli-wants-ms-dhoni-at-no-4-2707205

This is a Januray 2019 article but perhaps is shredding light on the Dhoni's batting position issue.Also the match situation was quite similar as India were 4-3 and Dhoni walked in at 5 after India lost Dhawan,Kohli and Rayudu.

 

[Bevab]

Now that the emotional attachment to the semis has worn off, here are my thoughts

• It’s quite clear that we failed to assess the conditions right from our team selection to the way we batted. There surely was a hint of arrogance in the team too, overconfidence maybe? The way in which we conceded 3 runs after two overthrows simultaneously is something that I haven’t seen this Indian side do. 9/10 times in test cricket, Kohli doesn’t shuffle across his line to play that glance and respects the ball instead. DK at five as someone to just stem the tide even at the expense of losing his wicket. All of these errors in isolation may be insignificant, but in a knockout game when combined can prove deadly.
• The Dhoni conundrum has also affected our lineup, with the inclusion of an extra batsman often done to mask the fact that he isn’t the player he once was alongside the non-existent tail. @LiveLoveABD was right in that we need to start playing with two all-rounders like almost every other ODI side in the world, even if they are ‘bits and pieces’ players as Manjrekar so eloquently put. The bowlers also need to learn to bat properly, almost every ODI side now has only 1 or at most 2 genuine tailenders who could still play a few strokes if needed. We play with 3 of them in most games and none of them are actually useful with the bat. Maybe the inclusion of someone like Gopal or Sundar could help here. Ideally, the current bowlers we have should work on their batting like Bhuvi and become better.
• The rumour mill seems to indicate that Shastri and Arun will continue for 2 more years with Bangar being sacked. Bharat Arun definitely needs to stay considering how he’s improved our pacers, while Bangar needs to go seeing how pretty much every single batsman in the side has one glaring weakness (Dhawan vs quick bouncers, Rohit and Kohli vs googlies, Pandya poking at outside off deliveries for eg) and some like Rahul and Rahane have either stagnated or regressed heavily compared to where they once were.
• Kohli’s captaincy will remain the contentious point for plenty. We saw both the strengths and weaknesses of his captaincy throughout the tournament. Right up until the England loss, Kohli’s captaincy shined throughout with the team selection being the same, injured players being replaced by similar players and Shankar playing the number 4 role that he was selected for. His bowling rotations and field placements were also good. After the loss however, Kohli’s ‘Random Team Generator’ kicked in and we started seeing the ugly side of it. He abandoned the two wristies policy that the team struck by rigidly, first with the inclusion of three pacers (which was the right move and should have been the way going forward) and then the inclusion of Jadeja to shore up the batting. Further, when it was finally believed that Dhoni would be playing at 4 surely now, Pant gets drafted in to play in that position. A proper middle order batsman in Jadhav who has played there for most of his career and someone with the numbers to back it up (albeit with a loss of current form) was dropped, perhaps harshly for a very average Karthik who plays one game at 7 as a pure finisher and another at 5 as a firefighter.
• Let’s call the period from the start till England’s loss ‘Plan A’. Now Kohli’s Plan A is solid and good, when things work in his favour owing to superior talent and the marginal tactical acumen that he has, they work well and we win comprehensively. It is when we need a ‘Plan B’ or something different that Kohli panics and makes the wrong decisions which is what happened after the England game. Had we not played Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, we might have lost yet another game. Plan A is to play positive cricket at a steady rate aiming for 40-50 runs in the first ten overs. When Plan A fails, we get games like the England loss where we fail to take advantage of the powerplay and play too passively or the NZ loss where we lose wickets in a heap due to not adjusting or accounting for other factors. The encouraging thing is that previously his bowler rotations were also extremely rigid where as now they are more flexible though they he could still improve on it.
• To finally answer the question, Kohli’s definitely improved as a captain without any doubt. I don’t think he is too emotionally charged or invested either at least with India in white ball cricket, a captain who lets emotions get the better of him would be someone like Sarfaraz Ahmed or Shakib. He doesn’t need to be a completely cool player like Williamson either. He has been fairly receptive to suggestions from Rohit and Dhoni during his reign and the players seem to like him. Most importantly, he keeps them motivated to win games and leads by example right from the high standards of fitness and higher levels of performance that he exhibits. The only reason you would want a change is because Rohit has proved to be a better captain tactically in IPL and the few games in which he has captained India. The Aussie side of 2000s didn’t have the best tactical mind as their captain though, Warnie and Clarke were both much better than Ponting when it came to tactics and yet it was Ponting leading them because he worked well and kept them firing on all cylinders.
• There is the argument that maybe the Aussie side was just too good to not fail which is what several of their own players have used to criticise the coach of that period Buchanan. My recommendation thus would be to sack Shastri and Bangar, retain Arun, get in a good coach with a proven record of having success building a team who is also interested like Tom Moody and keep Kohli as the captain until the T20WC next year at minimum. However, his position as captain should be under review with only a very good performance in the WC next year allowing him to continue. A couple of losses would mean that India crashes out of the tournament under most circumstances and this should mean that he needs to keep the side winning almost every game. An appearance in the final is the bare minimum for a team that is supported by the best T20 league in the world and any embarrassing loss in the knockout stages besides a group stage exit should mean his axing. If we suffer an unfortunate or close defeat, extend the review period to include next year’s T20WC which he has to win because it will be in India. A victory means he continues as the captain but with the caveat that poor performance for an extended period of time in bilateral series’ or in the next WC means his position is under threat again.
• Along with these, curtail his powers by reducing the influence he has over the coaching staff and ensure a fairer policy for selection that is more transparent with proper communication between selectors and players instead of the current setup where Kohli’s ‘friends’ seem to get a lot more leeway compared to others.
• This way, we can ascertain if Rohit would still maintain his high levels of performance over the next year or two before handing him the captaincy as he would be almost 36 by the next ODI WC and the last thing you would want is a captain who doesn’t merit his place in the side and playing only because he is the captain. This also allows the team to integrate a talented player with captaincy potential like Shreyas Iyer and see if he has the ability to lead the side full-time too if needed.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

There surely was a hint of arrogance in the team too, overconfidence maybe?

How can you call an over throw as a sign of arrogance ? We actually don't know what pressure they might be facing while being in the game. It could be to do something with the loses in previous tournaments due to which they played under pressure ?

 

[Bevab]

How can you call an over throw as a sign of arrogance ? We actually don't know what pressure they might be facing while being in the game. It could be to do something with the loses in previous tournaments due to which they played under pressure ?

Because it wouldn’t be the first time errors have crept into our gameplay during the phases where we were supposed to be on top. Our team is pretty much well known for the lack of killer instinct when it comes cleaning up the lower order and tail for one. It is why a player like Dhoni is so highly adored, he gave the team and fans belief that he would win most games as long as he stayed on the crease, something that prior to his rise had never existed really.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Because it wouldn’t be the first time errors have crept into our gameplay during the phases where we were supposed to be on top. Our team is pretty much well known for the lack of killer instinct when it comes cleaning up the lower order and tail for one. It is why a player like Dhoni is so highly adored, he gave the team and fans belief that he would win most games as long as he stayed on the crease, something that prior to his rise had never existed really.

I just have problem with one thing, which like people always call India's failure as arrogance rather than their inability to rise up under pressure. We are astonished by India's performance in bilateral series that we actually forgot the fact the India never does well in pressure matches especially knockouts. I can bring out number of matches where India failed to win in the 2000 era

2000 Champions Trophy Final
2003 WC Final
2003 VB Series Final
2004 TVS Cup Final
2004 Asia Cup Final
2008 Kitply Cup Final
2008 Asia Cup Final
2010 Idea Cup Final
2014 WT20 Final
2015 WC Semi-final
2016 WT20 Semi-final
2017 Champions Trophy Final
2019 WC Semi-final

In most of the above tournaments Indian side looked like a side that would be tough to beat but they went on to lose quite easily.

 

[Bevab]

I just have problem with one thing, which like people always call India's failure as arrogance rather than their inability to rise up under pressure. We are astonished by India's performance in bilateral series that we actually forgot the fact the India never does well in pressure matches especially knockouts. I can bring out number of matches where India failed to win in the 2000 era

2000 Champions Trophy Final
2003 WC Final
2003 VB Series Final
2004 TVS Cup Final
2004 Asia Cup Final
2008 Kitply Cup Final
2008 Asia Cup Final
2010 Idea Cup Final
2014 WT20 Final
2015 WC Semi-final
2016 WT20 Semi-final
2017 Champions Trophy Final
2019 WC Semi-final

In most of the above tournaments Indian side looked like a side that would be tough to beat but they went on to lose quite easily.

Fair point, arrogance is probably not the right word for it. Complacency, nervousness maybe with a hint of arrogance? I’m sure someone more eloquent than me can find a better term to describe this.

The 2000s were a different time period though. We had a clearcut legendary team in Australia that would absolutely stomp nearly everyone. Below them we had teams like Sri Lanka and South Africa who all had well balanced sides with some world class cricketers. India were probably in that tier or even slightly below them due to our average bowling lineup.

Compare that to now, we have two of the best ODI batsmen in the world, an opener that complements them and probably the best bowling lineup too. Our only issues are the weak middle-order and lack of killer instinct/adaptability which are both largely self-inflicted due to the obsession with Dhoni, the extra batsman and a certain type of player for number 4. This team with a better captain and selection policies plus coaching should have been rivalling the Australian side of the previous decade. Instead, we’re left grumbling over ‘what could have been’ with regards to both ICC white ball tournaments and overseas test series.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

This team with a better captain and selection policies plus coaching should have been rivalling the Australian side of the previous decade. Instead, we’re left grumbling over ‘what could have been’ with regards to both ICC white ball tournaments and overseas test series.

I am sure that if Rohit Sharma Captains the team on regular basis we might have same views about his Captaincy what we have with Kohli. The fact is that we are so used to have a Captain who was very different from other Captains for almost a decade we feel Kohli isn't a good Captain but if we compare with standards of players who Captained India he was just up there. Sourav Ganguly himself has went on to say that Kohli as Captain is so much like him and not just once but on numerous occasions

 

[Aalay]

Just an update on the county situation. Ravi Ashwin is having a great time with Notts. He picked up a 6-fer today in his third match. He took a five-fer in last game as well. On the other hand, Rahane is having an absolute shocker after he scored that century in the very first match he played for Hampshire.

 

[Bigby Wolf]

The India A tour is underway against the West Indies A , the first game was played a couple of days ago and Iyer scored a solid 70 odd after a bit of early collapse to get India past a small total of 190 but our bowlers were clinical enough to get WI A all out for 125 with Khaleel picking up 3 wickets.

Iyer, Khaleel overwhelm West Indies A in tour opener http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...dia-1st-unofficial-odi-india-west-indies-2019

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Proves how lame is Ravi Shastri with his explanations
'Needed a solid batsman out there in middle order' - Shastri

 

[abhi_jacko]

Don't term it that way but I hope we don't become an anti muslim team with the government taking over, literally it would sound cheap.

Sorry, but this is a ridiculous point !! If I did not know better, I would have marked it as the work of a twitter troll[DOUBLEPOST=1563169140][/DOUBLEPOST]

Not a prey to social media but it might become a trend in the future, I hope not.

There is absolutely ZERO evidence of this happening. Zilch. None.

 

[AliB]

There is absolutely ZERO evidence of this happening. Zilch. None.

I hope so dude, no one wants that but this government is proving a threat in these cases.