England Team Discussion

[NILAYSHAH60]

Moeen has been an interesting case. He was doing fairly well till 2017-18 but then all of a sudden he lost form and got dropped from the Test side while he was still doing decently in ODIs. And off the back of a good performance in County Cricket he was back to the Test squad for the India series but instead Adil Rashid was favoured in the playing XI.

Moeen Ali came back in the Southampton Test and had a potentially match winning partnership with Sam Curran. His bowling put India into trouble and once again he came and scored some crucial runs in the 2nd innings. While defending 243 he was all over the Indians as he got both set Virat Kohli and Ajinkya Rahane and eventually managed 4-5 wickets bowling close to 30 overs.

He was included in the team as a specialist no.3 going into the Final Test at the Oval and scored another half century while he didn't bowl that well in the match. Later when he batted in the 2nd innings he had a good start but was bowled by Jadeja before he could score big.

On his build up to the World Cup and post that he has struggled all throughout. There came a time when he had to pull out his run-up about more than thrice and wasn't even confident while bowling and this happened in an Ashes Test at Edgbaston. He was dropped post that and he neither did anything considerable in any form of Cricket apart from IPL which was before the World Cup.

His having some issues which aren't properly being addressed by the ECB and he would keep struggling unless his problem is addressed properly.

 

[Dutch]

Moeen is another one who has been damaged by shifting him around in different roles. I saw him play in Oz during the ‘17 Ashes and he just looked absolutely shot

 

[Aislabie]

So I've been trying to think about who seems likely to make up the English 2023 World Cup squad...

Top-Order Hitters

1ST CHOICE - Jonny Bairstow (Age: 34)
An average of 47 and strike rate of 105 is irreplaceable; if he's still going to the same standard at the age of 34, then he'll be in.

2ND CHOICE - Jason Roy (Age: 33)
Again, a huge part of the line-up when he's playing well as he averages 40 at a strike rate of 106. But I'm also unconvinced that his game will hold together for that long; even before the pandemic, he'd barely hit 30 all year this year.

3RD CHOICE - Tom Banton (Age: 24)
The stats don't really merit Banton's inclusion yet, but he's someone who's being picked very much on potential. He showed that potential hugely in his 42-ball 71 against Pakistan, as well as fruitful Blast and Big Bash stints. Should not bat anywhere other than the top of the order.

4TH CHOICE - Phil Salt (Age: 27)
He's yet to make his England debut, but if he does he'll be the first Welshman to do so since Simon Jones. And it you're in the market for a bonus stat, he was also the player who earned a CPL winner's medal because he happened to be holidaying there when a Tridents player got injured before the final. Salt got the call and flew in to make a duck.

5TH CHOICE - Tom Kohler-Cadmore (Age: 29)
One of the three players involved in Alex Hepburn's group chats, I'd happily never see him play for England no matter how good a batsman he is. A bunch of Lions appearances suggest that he's in the selectors' minds though.

NOT A CHOICE - Alex Hales (Age: 34)
Once the prototype of what Bairstow and Roy have become, Alex Hales has found himself persona non grata for the crime of being an all-round shit bloke. It's kind of hard to argue with.

- - -

Accumulators

1ST CHOICE - Joe Root (Age: 32)
He's the fidgety, accumulator glue that allows England's hitters to play to their fullest potential. And for an accumulator he scores quickly too, with a strike rate up around 90.

2ND CHOICE - Sam Hain (Age: 28)
Sam Hain has been a massive victim of England's approach of only picking one accumulator in their ODI side where most teams would (should?) pick two. Hain averages 60 in List A cricket at a strike rate of 87, and if that sounds exceptional it's because nobody has ever done that before.

3RD CHOICE - Dawid Malan (Age: 36)
The world's number one Twenty20 International batsman has for some strange reason only played once for England's ODI team. He's certainly more than good - and versatile - enough to make a World Cup squad, but he'll be 36 by the time the next one rolls around so it might be a bit late.

- - -

Middle-Order Hitters

1ST CHOICE - Jos Buttler (Age: 33)
Obviously.

2ND CHOICE - Ben Stokes (Age: 32)
Also obviously. Also provides some useful overs, because we do need to get some overs out of our batsmen in order to balance the side.

3RD CHOICE - Eoin Morgan (Age: 37)
He'll be 37, but a World Cup defence would be an apt swansong for England's most decorated white-ball captain.

4TH CHOICE - Sam Billings (Age: 32)
Another player of a certain age, it's kind of hard to argue with his 2020 performances now that he's been given an extended run. However, he might lose out if England need bowling options in their middle order.

5TH CHOICE - Liam Livingstone (Age: 30)
Since when was Liam Livingstone in his late 20s already? Anyhow, he has a List A average of 36 at a run a ball, and offers some stock spin that might be much-needed by England.

6TH CHOICE - Tom Lammonby (Age: 23)
Probably a bit bold to pick a guy who's not played a List A match yet, but Tom Lammonby has made a fantastic start to his first-class career while also striking at 150 in Twenty20s: he's a hitter who can bat long if needed. He also bowls some left-arm seam, which could be valuable.

7TH CHOICE - Liam Dawson (Age: 33)
Another player who's like... a lot older than you think at first. Much more of a bowling-first pick, you could certainly get away with Dawson batting at seven.

NOT A CHOICE - Moeen Ali (Age: 36)
Let's be honest, he's been taking up a spot for a long time now.

- - -

Bowling Options

At least one, possibly two bowling options as well as the keeper have to come from the batsmen listed above.

Pace Bowlers

1ST CHOICE - Jofra Archer (Age: 28)
An express pace bowler who delivered in the World Cup final; can't say fairer than that.

2ND CHOICE - Chris Woakes (Age: 34)
A key member of England's ODI attack - sort of a friendly Josh Hazlewood. He will be 34 by the time the next World Cup rolls around, but if he's still doing his job then he should still get picked. Plus, he's a handy batsman at seven or eight.

3RD CHOICE - Mark Wood (Age: 33)
He's the fastest bowler in England. If he's still able to be that bowler at the age of 33, then another World Cup beckons for him. His workload will have to be managed.

4TH CHOICE - Reece Topley (Age: 29)
It's very difficult to pick a bowler with Reece Topley's injury record, but if he is fit then then he's one of the top four available seam bowlers.

5TH CHOICE - Tom Curran (Age: 28)
Curran's ODI numbers aren't fantastic, but there's a sense that he bowls the "difficult overs" and that he can be moulded into an elite death bowler. His emergence at Surrey was as a bristling yorker bowler.

6TH CHOICE - Saqib Mahmood (Age: 26)
A promising, aggressive pace bowler. He's not quite as quick as Wood or Archer, or as skilled as Woakes or Curran, but he's an excellent all-round seamer.

7TH CHOICE - Sam Curran (Age: 25)
He's on the list for sure, but Sam is definitely the more hittable Curran bowler. An ODI economy rate of seven is... eh.

NOT A CHOICE - Chris Jordan (Age: 35)
He's very much found his niche in the Twenty20 team, but I don't think that a 35-year-old Chris Jordan will offer anything new to the ODI team that it doesn't have already.

NOT A CHOICE - Liam Plunkett (Age: 38)
He won't be playing for England at the United States, but if the United States manage to fight their way into the 2023 World Cup then there's a non-zero chance that Plunkett could appear for them.

Spin Bowlers

1ST CHOICE - Adil Rashid (Age: 35)
He's England's foremost attacking white ball spinner and if he's still fit and able, he'll make the team.

2ND CHOICE - Liam Dawson
Even if he doesn't make the top seven, I still feel that Liam Dawson should make the team as probably the best available stock bowler.

3RD CHOICE - Matt Parkinson (Age: 26)
An excellent attacking leg-spinner; he bowls unfashionably slowly, but it's not that he needs to work at. It's his fielding.

4TH CHOICE - Simon Harmer (Age: 34)
Will he be England-qualified by then?

5TH CHOICE - Dan Moriarty (Age: 24)
This is an almighty punt based on eight professional games, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Surrey-born and South African-educated Moriarty sneak into the squad.

6TH CHOICE - Mason Crane (Age: 26)
An attacking leggie with a decent List A record and a lot of hype, I wouldn't be surprised to see Mason Crane sneak into the reckoning.

NOT A CHOICE - Moeen Ali
See above. Can't pick him just to keep Rashid happy.

- - -

So... a squad prediction?

In batting order, with reserves:

Jonny Bairstow
Sam Hain
Joe Root
Eoin Morgan
Ben Stokes
Jos Buttler
Liam Livingstone
Chris Woakes
Tom Curran
Adil Rashid
Jofra Archer

Phil Salt
Tom Banton
Liam Dawson
Saqib Mahmood

It's an ageing squad, and a slightly different balance to the current team. The reasons for the changes are as follows:

Roy out / Hain in
I think/hope that Roy's game is on a genuine decline, and there's definite merit in picking more than one accumulator when they both score at over five an over anyway.

Moeen out / Livingstone in
Moeen's primary role is as a lower middle-order hitter, and it's a job he's been failing at. Livingstone certainly has that skill-set, and will likely be used as the stock spinner as it's a role England haven't always taken completely seriously.

Wood out / Curran in
He'll be injured, and so will Reece Topley.

Liam Dawson as 12th man
It is tradition.

- - -

Thoughts?

 

[Ed Smith]

NOT A CHOICE - Moeen Ali (Age: 36)
Let's be honest, he's been taking up a spot for a long time now.

This was my favourite bit, although I'd like it to apply now not 2023

 

[wasteyouryouth]

Based on the XI yesterday I'd say that's what they want for the next World Cup with Stokes in for Billings.

Don't see how any of the top six lose their place barring a catastrophic drop in form. Morgan backs his players in the long term. Besides, they all average above 40. There's a strong case it's the best top six in ODI history. It's certainly England's.

I'm a Warwickshire fan but I don't see how Hain gets in the side. He seems like for like replacement for Root who averages 50. Barring a drop in from him or one of the top six with Banton, Billings, Malan, Salt, (Pope, Foakes too maybe) all failing if given a chance Hain doesn't seem to be on the one day radar. The One Day Cup is going to basically become a second XI competition if it is played parallel with The Hundred. So the only realistic way into the one day side would be from excelling in T20/100 cricket (which has probably been the measure anyway for a while, why else would Banton get picked ahead of someone with a record like Hain?)

Ideally they'd have Moeen firing at least with bat or ball or a like for like replacement. Dawson seems like the best fit. But as Mo has been deputising for Morgan I'd expect Morgan values him highly so he will be in and around the side until they find someone to fill that gap.

Woakes probably at risk due to age and they might find replacing Plunkett more important. Although I'd expect 10 overs from Moeen, Stokes and Root to be reasonable. But Woakes just always seems like he's one game from getting rotated out of whatever team he's in.

Tom Curran would seem like a good bet with his change ups on Indian pitches in a World Cup. He can bat a bit too.

 

[Aislabie]

Don't see how any of the top six lose their place barring a catastrophic drop in form. Morgan backs his players in the long term. Besides, they all average above 40. There's a strong case it's the best top six in ODI history. It's certainly England's.

Yeah, I'd fully agree with that. The only reason I had Roy out is because I'm expecting just such a catastrophic drop in form to become evident

I'm a Warwickshire fan but I don't see how Hain gets in the side. He seems like for like replacement for Root who averages 50. Barring a drop in from him or one of the top six with Banton, Billings, Malan, Salt, (Pope, Foakes too maybe) all failing if given a chance Hain doesn't seem to be on the one day radar. The One Day Cup is going to basically become a second XI competition if it is played parallel with The Hundred. So the only realistic way into the one day side would be from excelling in T20/100 cricket (which has probably been the measure anyway for a while, why else would Banton get picked ahead of someone with a record like Hain?)

I think it's a really harsh misconception on Sam Hain's skills that he's been pigeonholed as a Root clone. I mean, he absolutely could step up into the Root role very well, but his List A strike rate is literally only one run per hundred balls short of Tom Banton. He maybe doesn't have that absolute top gear of a T20 power-hitter, but I'd much rather have someone at the top of the order with an obvious record of scoring 90-ball hundreds for fun. Now is also the time to try it really

Ideally they'd have Moeen firing at least with bat or ball or a like for like replacement. Dawson seems like the best fit. But as Mo has been deputising for Morgan I'd expect Morgan values him highly so he will be in and around the side until they find someone to fill that gap.

I really like Liam Dawson and would personally pick him at seven right now. In reality though they'd probably be more likely to pick someone like Liam Livingstone given his pedigree as a power hitter and economy of 5.2 as a spinner. He's also an outstanding fielder, so there's a strong case for him getting picked

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

I am sure looking at past perfornances of Woakes in India he would get picked for the World Cup irrespective of age. Still remember him running through our top order at Kochi back in 2013 in his debut match. Also he bowled wonderfully in the ODI series the last time around when 330 was a norm. His batting skills also helps him get into the English side.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Tom Curran would seem like a good bet with his change ups on Indian pitches in a World Cup. He can bat a bit too.

For sure he would be effective. Just a week ago I watched him in a repeat telecast of the 2018 IPL match between CSK and KKR at Chepauk. Billings was the only guy who somehow dominated him or else he would've won KKR the match that day. He looks to be a good package.

 

[Yash.]

Pace Bowlers

So disappointing to see that David Willey doesn’t get into the potentials list here too

 

[wasteyouryouth]

Yeah, I'd fully agree with that. The only reason I had Roy out is because I'm expecting just such a catastrophic drop in form to become evident


I think it's a really harsh misconception on Sam Hain's skills that he's been pigeonholed as a Root clone. I mean, he absolutely could step up into the Root role very well, but his List A strike rate is literally only one run per hundred balls short of Tom Banton. He maybe doesn't have that absolute top gear of a T20 power-hitter, but I'd much rather have someone at the top of the order with an obvious record of scoring 90-ball hundreds for fun. Now is also the time to try it really


I really like Liam Dawson and would personally pick him at seven right now. In reality though they'd probably be more likely to pick someone like Liam Livingstone given his pedigree as a power hitter and economy of 5.2 as a spinner. He's also an outstanding fielder, so there's a strong case for him getting picked

Roy's averaging 40 since the start of the World Cup. He's had a lean summer, so far, but it's been very stop start for him. I don't see it being a concern to Morgan as captain unless it lasted until next summer and if others who get a chance performed well.

I don't disagree, it would be nice to see Hain get a chance but I think the fact he hasn't been in any of the squads, ever, would suggest that something is putting him at the back of the queue and probably getting overtaken in the last 12 months by the likes of Banton or Salt for top order places. Another thing might be lack of franchise experience. Banton, Salt, Malan, Billings all have it. I think if you're on the radar of franchises they are going to be looking at data that matters and England will see the same stuff. When, who, where, how they score the runs will be as important as an average. Maybe looking at franchise cricket is something Hain needs to do but that might impact on his first class game which is where I'd say he's perhaps closer to getting selected. Or he could just sign for Kent.

Looking at T20 strike rate too you can see a big difference. It seems as important, like I said about T20 and the rather valueless one day cup (same in Australia, India). England look to keep the momentum rolling, they struggle when that doesn't work they've lost a lot of early wickets this summer. It probably cost them the match against Ireland they lost and likewise the run chase last night. But most of the players can adapt to grind it out and catch up. Stokes and Buttler did it in the WC Final, Billings and Bairstow did it the other night.

If you're taking your groupings of batters, I'd actually Stokes is more of an accumulator. His batting has changed a lot in all formats over the last couple of years. His strike rate is closer to Root's and of the core top six is 13 lower than Morgan who is 102. In fact I'd see Stokes as more dynamic or just as a player that is there to do what the team needs at the time (because he can often do that). I thought Billings played a very Stokes-like innings the other night. 50 in 66 balls and the 68 in the next 44.

I am surprised Dawson hasn't had any games, I thought he might against Ireland. I would assume that Moeen is first choice for that number 7 spot in the WT20 side for next year and so they want him to have as many games as possible. He's also got a central contract so they don't want to pay him for nothing.[DOUBLEPOST=1599992656][/DOUBLEPOST]

I am sure looking at past perfornances of Woakes in India he would get picked for the World Cup irrespective of age. Still remember him running through our top order at Kochi back in 2013 in his debut match. Also he bowled wonderfully in the ODI series the last time around when 330 was a norm. His batting skills also helps him get into the English side.

Woakes would be in my ODI side. He's a decent enough bat and a very good bowler. And he's Chris Woakes.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Woakes would be in my ODI side. He's a decent enough bat and a very good bowler. And he's Chris Woakes.

We Indians are obsessed calling players with their last name.

Some odd exceptions are Rohit Sharma, Ishant Sharma, Steve Smith, etc etc

 

[wasteyouryouth]

We Indians are obsessed calling players with their last name.

Some odd exceptions are Rohit Sharma, Ishant Sharma, Steve Smith, etc etc

I didn't mean you had to call him Chris Woakes, just he's Chris Woakes so you pick him for that reason. Others may disagree.

 

[Aislabie]

So over the last year, Matt Critchley has averaged over 50 with the bat and under 30 with the ball for Derbyshire. With Stokes out due to his finger and England used to a balanced side, I guess he could be a contender for a bit of a rogue Test debut this summer.

Dom Sibley
TBC
TBC
Joe Root
TBC
Matt Critchley
TBC

Something like that ^^^

I know that's a lot of TBCs, but after that India tour no batsmen can really be sure of their spots. My guess at the TBCs would be Burns, Crawley, Pope, Foakes but one suspects that's not what England will go with

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

So over the last year, Matt Critchley has averaged over 50 with the bat and under 30 with the ball for Derbyshire. With Stokes out due to his finger and England used to a balanced side, I guess he could be a contender for a bit of a rogue Test debut this summer.

Dom Sibley
TBC
TBC
Joe Root
TBC
Matt Critchley
TBC

Something like that ^^^

I know that's a lot of TBCs, but after that India tour no batsmen can really be sure of their spots. My guess at the TBCs would be Burns, Crawley, Pope, Foakes but one suspects that's not what England will go with

Dan Lawrence?

 

[ddrap14]

So over the last year, Matt Critchley has averaged over 50 with the bat and under 30 with the ball for Derbyshire. With Stokes out due to his finger and England used to a balanced side, I guess he could be a contender for a bit of a rogue Test debut this summer.

Dom Sibley
TBC
TBC
Joe Root
TBC
Matt Critchley
TBC

Something like that ^^^

I know that's a lot of TBCs, but after that India tour no batsmen can really be sure of their spots. My guess at the TBCs would be Burns, Crawley, Pope, Foakes but one suspects that's not what England will go with

I think the biggest TBC is the fact that Ed Smith's favourites are probably already out the door. Who that means will be dropped, we don't know.
except for Buttler and Bairstow