India Team Discussion

[Bevab]

Indian ODI and T20 probables

Openers

1. KL Rahul
2. Prithvi Shaw
3. Rohit Sharma
4. Shikhar Dhawan
5. Mayank Agarwal

Middle Order

1. Virat Kohli,
2. Shreyas Iyer
3. Rishabh Pant
4. Sanju Samson
5. Ishan

Lower Order

1. Hardik Pandya
2. Ravindra Jadeja
3. Washington Sundar
4. Axar Patel
5. Krunal Pandya (have doubts)

Bowlers

1. Jasprit Bumrah
2. Mohammad Shami
3. Bhuvneshwar Kumar
4. Umesh Yadav
5. Khaleel Ahmed
6. Saini
7. Siraj
8. Yuzi Chahal
9. Varun Chakroberty?
10. Kuldeep
11. Rahul Chahar

Looking at the list, we definitely need more middle order batsman or should remove KL Rahul from opening and move him down. We need more of Kohli’s and Iyer’s!

This XI on form looks dangerous

1. Shikhar Dhawan
2. Rohit Sharma
3. Virat Kohli
4. Shreyas Iyer
5. KL Rahul
6. Rishabh Pant
7. Hardik Pandya
8. Washington Sundar
9. Yuzi Chahal
10. Mohammad Shami
11. Jasprit Bumrah

I assume that the playing XI is for ODIs as not having Rahul as the opener in T20s is doing a massive disservice to India's number one T20 batsman in the IPL over the last three years despite Dhawan's recent resurgence.

I don't think Hardik can be relied on for providing ten consistent overs anymore in the future, he was already looking like a weak link back when he was almost exclusively focusing on bowling and right now with his bowling action not fully ready yet we shouldn't have him in as a fifth bowler. There is massive potential in him to be a regular number five/six depending on the situation and being the sixth bowler who can be brought on to be aggressive with the ball or to utilize a few variations of his to keep the opposition guessing.

Not a fan of Samson at all for reasons previously mentioned, I would rather have someone like SKY in there who has now showed that he can be consistent. Has been Mumbai's top scorer in the last three seasons combined and can be aggressive if required. He can also roll his arm over for a few overs if required which is always handy in a pinch. Pandey's also someone who deserves to be in there after his form in T20Is. Can't really think of someone else without downgrading to options like Shankar (oh how the mighty have fallen!) or Dube. Gill is another name that you could add to the openers list too, this season is the first time he has had something resembling an extended barren run in his career and can you even criticize him when he does have 300 runs to his name despite playing a role that is clearly stifling him?

Ashwin is most definitely going to be included in the next LO squad after his performance in the IPL this season as rumoured. Would prefer to have him in the T20Is alone though, he is too passive in ODIs and isn't much good with the bat in white ball cricket. Umesh and Siraj are not going to be there in the LO squad most likely, as @Yash. mentioned Deepak Chahar deserves a decent shot after what he's done. Has improved his pace to a decent extent and has added more facets to his bowling. International honours for Chakravarthy seems too soon, I do think Tewatia will be in the frame of things after this season given how handy he has been with the bat. Gopal is unlucky to have such a poor season this time, would have definitely been in the shout for a national call-up had he retained his form from the last two seasons. There was talk of Mavi being included in the LO squad too so that he gains experience which does not seem like the worst idea in the world. Our white ball pace bowling stock is definitely the biggest worry in the side given how important two of our best white ball pacers are also integral members of the test team.

For ODIs, this would be my lineup in the foreseeable future.

1. Rohit
2. Dhawan/Mayank (transition slowly if the former loses form)
3. Kohli
4. Shreyas (don't mess with his position for the love of god, he is the perfect number four for this team)
5. Rahul (has to be the keeper in the near future and I still rate him as a much better number five than an opener in ODIs, he can be our very own version of Buttler)
6. Hardik
7. Jadeja (his batting is fine for a number seven, realistically how many sides have a good batsman down at seven who also slogs?)
8. ?? (The big question mark for me, we need someone who you can call a bowling all-rounder or at least a bowler who can bat for sometime. Potential options include a rejuvenated Bhuvi or Chahar with Mavi or Nagarkoti slotting in here in the long term)
9. Shami (I don't care how expensive he is at the death, he can take 2-3 important wickets before that which are more important than being slightly more expensive than the average pacer at the death. Wickets win the modern ODIs and Shami is one of the best in the world at taking them)
10. Chahal (He needs an extended run without the threat of him losing his spot to Kuldeep or a newbie)
11. Bumrah

As for T20s

1. Rahul
2. Rohit
3. Kohli
4. Shreyas/Pant (only if the latter recovers his form from 2018-19)
5. Hardik
6. Pandey (a bit of an iffy selection but sandwiched in between Hardik and a number seven who will have to slog at the death, Pandey can rotate strike quickly and find boundaries through gaps profiting from the lack of accuracy in the death overs. Karthik from two years ago would have been perfect here but he was unfortunately not backed adequately and has lost form now)
7. Axar (Jadeja's bowling has never been great in T20s and I think Axar deserves another good chance after his form)
8. Sundar/Ashwin (if you had asked me before this IPL I would have chosen Ashwin easily but Sundar has been really impressive this time. He could also bat at seven if needed with an extra pacer playing here in Chahar or Saini)
9. Shami/Saini/Chahar (Shami's form this IPL has been truly tremendous and speaks of the work he has put in to become a better T20 player despite already being an established international in two other formats. My issue is that a death bowler in T20s is a lot more important compared to ODIs and he does have the prospenity to be thrashed on occasion)
10. Chahal (Unlike in ODIs where I think you could make a case for a Kuldeep or someone new, Chahal has to be the first choice spinner in T20s)
11. Bumrah

 

[ShamiLoverGlipGlops]

6th bowling option?

Why do we need 6th bowling option? If we have 5 bowling well, we should be good.[DOUBLEPOST=1603582429][/DOUBLEPOST]

Se

No Deepak Chahar? That guy has the best bowling figures in the T20I for a pacer FFS.

He has been consistent af, and should be preferred ahead of Bhuvi (in case a third seamer is needed.) I am a massive fan of Bhuvi but he hasn't looked the same ever since his back injuries.

Completely forgot about Deepak Chahar. I wrote as many players I could

 

[ShamiLoverGlipGlops]

You have forgotten about Manish Pandey I think. He is definitely higher up the list than Ishan. I would like to see sky debut too but admittedly can't find a place for him. Also as Ashutosh mentioned a 6th bowler is needed. You could play jadeja or maybe someone like axar

Pandey has got enough chances in ODI plus T20. Although his record isnt bad, he is not consistent. We definitely need some like Raina or Yuvi in prime years, someone we can say oh he is left, he can win us the match. Not like oh, top 4 are out, India has lost.

 

[ShamiLoverGlipGlops]

I assume that the playing XI is for ODIs as not having Rahul as the opener in T20s is doing a massive disservice to India's number one T20 batsman in the IPL over the last three years despite Dhawan's recent resurgence.

I don't think Hardik can be relied on for providing ten consistent overs anymore in the future, he was already looking like a weak link back when he was almost exclusively focusing on bowling and right now with his bowling action not fully ready yet we shouldn't have him in as a fifth bowler. There is massive potential in him to be a regular number five/six depending on the situation and being the sixth bowler who can be brought on to be aggressive with the ball or to utilize a few variations of his to keep the opposition guessing.

Not a fan of Samson at all for reasons previously mentioned, I would rather have someone like SKY in there who has now showed that he can be consistent. Has been Mumbai's top scorer in the last three seasons combined and can be aggressive if required. He can also roll his arm over for a few overs if required which is always handy in a pinch. Pandey's also someone who deserves to be in there after his form in T20Is. Can't really think of someone else without downgrading to options like Shankar (oh how the mighty have fallen!) or Dube. Gill is another name that you could add to the openers list too, this season is the first time he has had something resembling an extended barren run in his career and can you even criticize him when he does have 300 runs to his name despite playing a role that is clearly stifling him?

Ashwin is most definitely going to be included in the next LO squad after his performance in the IPL this season as rumoured. Would prefer to have him in the T20Is alone though, he is too passive in ODIs and isn't much good with the bat in white ball cricket. Umesh and Siraj are not going to be there in the LO squad most likely, as @Yash. mentioned Deepak Chahar deserves a decent shot after what he's done. Has improved his pace to a decent extent and has added more facets to his bowling. International honours for Chakravarthy seems too soon, I do think Tewatia will be in the frame of things after this season given how handy he has been with the bat. Gopal is unlucky to have such a poor season this time, would have definitely been in the shout for a national call-up had he retained his form from the last two seasons. There was talk of Mavi being included in the LO squad too so that he gains experience which does not seem like the worst idea in the world. Our white ball pace bowling stock is definitely the biggest worry in the side given how important two of our best white ball pacers are also integral members of the test team.

For ODIs, this would be my lineup in the foreseeable future.

1. Rohit
2. Dhawan/Mayank (transition slowly if the former loses form)
3. Kohli
4. Shreyas (don't mess with his position for the love of god, he is the perfect number four for this team)
5. Rahul (has to be the keeper in the near future and I still rate him as a much better number five than an opener in ODIs, he can be our very own version of Buttler)
6. Hardik
7. Jadeja (his batting is fine for a number seven, realistically how many sides have a good batsman down at seven who also slogs?)
8. ?? (The big question mark for me, we need someone who you can call a bowling all-rounder or at least a bowler who can bat for sometime. Potential options include a rejuvenated Bhuvi or Chahar with Mavi or Nagarkoti slotting in here in the long term)
9. Shami (I don't care how expensive he is at the death, he can take 2-3 important wickets before that which are more important than being slightly more expensive than the average pacer at the death. Wickets win the modern ODIs and Shami is one of the best in the world at taking them)
10. Chahal (He needs an extended run without the threat of him losing his spot to Kuldeep or a newbie)
11. Bumrah

As for T20s

1. Rahul
2. Rohit
3. Kohli
4. Shreyas/Pant (only if the latter recovers his form from 2018-19)
5. Hardik
6. Pandey (a bit of an iffy selection but sandwiched in between Hardik and a number seven who will have to slog at the death, Pandey can rotate strike quickly and find boundaries through gaps profiting from the lack of accuracy in the death overs. Karthik from two years ago would have been perfect here but he was unfortunately not backed adequately and has lost form now)
7. Axar (Jadeja's bowling has never been great in T20s and I think Axar deserves another good chance after his form)
8. Sundar/Ashwin (if you had asked me before this IPL I would have chosen Ashwin easily but Sundar has been really impressive this time. He could also bat at seven if needed with an extra pacer playing here in Chahar or Saini)
9. Shami/Saini/Chahar (Shami's form this IPL has been truly tremendous and speaks of the work he has put in to become a better T20 player despite already being an established international in two other formats. My issue is that a death bowler in T20s is a lot more important compared to ODIs and he does have the prospenity to be thrashed on occasion)
10. Chahal (Unlike in ODIs where I think you could make a case for a Kuldeep or someone new, Chahal has to be the first choice spinner in T20s)
11. Bumrah

Agree on Chahar, but Pandey is a big no!

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Pandey is a big no!

There is a definite argument over Pandey's IPL performances over the years but he has somehow done well in Syed Mushtaq Ali trophy and India A. Also he has been very good batting at 6 for India. He somehow fits in the side and he can equally perform his new role of being a lower order slogger.

 

[Verified Enigma]

Why do we need 6th bowling option? If we have 5 bowling well, we should be good

Don't agree. Need a reliable part timer and it has always been part of Indian Team for so long.

Kedar
Yuvraj
Raina
Sehwag
Sachin
and so on...

We might not bowl the 6th for most matches but surely need that 6th bowler option when necessary.

The only viable part timer I see is kohli himself which I really have doubts over his bowling

(Rohit was a good spinner but he left bowling long ago I guess)

 

[Yash.]

Rohit was a good spinner but he left bowling long ago I guess)

His back started giving him problems...

We need to groom other pace bowling all rounders. So one of Vijay Shankar or Shivam Dube can be played. Provide a handy sixth bowling option..

 

[Verified Enigma]

His back started giving him problems...

We need to groom other pace bowling all rounders. So one of Vijay Shankar or Shivam Dube can be played. Provide a handy sixth bowling option..

i dont think we need a pace bowling all rounder as we have hardik along with bumrah shami bhuvi chahar and co.

we just need a good part time 6th bowling option in 11

 

[Yash.]

Ishant Sharma likely to be fit for Adelaide Test

Good signs

 

[ShamiLoverGlipGlops]

Squads announced guys! The only surprise entry is Varun Chakravarthy

 

[Yash.]

Squads announced guys! The only surprise entry is Varun Chakravarthy

Axar deserved it more than him IMO

 

[ShamiLoverGlipGlops]

Axar deserved it more than him IMO

Agree! Axar definitely should have been above the list.

Who is opening for India?

Test - Mayank, Prithvi
ODI - KL Rahul, Dhawan, Gill, Agarwal?
T20 - Dhawan, Rahul, Agarwal..?

Also Samson over Pant in T20?

 

[Bevab]

@Bevab

That post was a masterclass and I wanted to go over it again but I can't find it, so I will try to communicate better how I truly feel from what I remember-

First and foremost, I want to make my feelings about Virat Kohli well known.

I have been watching cricket since 1992 and if I had to pick one cricketer in my team in any format from any era to win a cricket match, Virat would be the first name on that sheet. Reasons?

1) Absolute team man. The guy will lay his all on the field till the last ball is bowled and he will go to lengths people don't visualise to get the team in a better place. If it means running an extra run and risking getting run out on the last ball of the innings to ruin his average to chasing a ball on the last ball of the 90th over in a test match on day 5. With Virat, you will get 101%.

2) His attention to detail for gaining small margins is well documented through his fitness and the importance he places on them but having seen him train on the ground for almost three hours just trying to practice "rotating the strike" by placing tyres as fielders and actually running those runs was simply a sight to behold. Great sportsmen simply just look for every little gain they can make to their game and then there are those that look for them with microscopes and that makes them legends. Kohli, very simply is someone who combines mega talent with monumental levels of dedication, commitment and passion.

3) Unlike most people I cheer for him when he is himself. It could be abusing people, egging crowds on or simply getting into an unnecessary fight. It doesn't mean I condone it, but I love him for being himself and being unapologetic about it. If I have ever criticised that bit then it's out of frustration for his captaincy and his love affair with that pathetic excuse for a human being called Shastri. At the risk of being called a hypocrite, I firmly believe Shastri should not be himself.

Let's put the captaincy aside now because we both know how we feel and we both know a lot of it is justified while some of it could be compounded anger.

My issue with Kohli is very simply that he has become a kind of a robot. He just comes in and he has a premeditated mindset of taking singles and doubles. A lot like Dhoni from 2014 where he just made it in agenda to "take it deep." If you just notice in the last game against CSK, RCB couldn't launch because Kohli had decided he wanted to bat a certain way and AB just couldn't launch. Result? Mediocrity. I think where Kohli has taken his game makes that a huge shame. Just take a look at the two caught and bowled chances that he offered. Please take a look at his backlift in that entire phase of the innings- It barely ever reached Dhoni's shoulders. It mostly hovered around Dhoni's waist. What does that say? He's looking for 1's and 2's. He simply had a premeditated plan that he will not push the button till a certain over number was passed and bang on cue it crossed that mark and the backlift was way above Dhoni's head and he also started to use his feet. Compare that to AB where it remained the same right through and he simply plays the merit of that ball but his mindset is always to put the pressure on the bowler. I don't think Kohli is one of those batters who has limitations like say a Gambhir or a Dravid? OK, he might not be a Russell or an AB but how many are?

For his talent, for his class and for his ability it's simply criminal to have his mind draw limitations. Ironically, it's this limitless imagination and his brash self belief and never to accept no attitude that has got him this far. T20 cricket simply demands that fearlessness and brash quality even though it means more failure. Kohli is not the only one who has succumbed to this, KL Rahul has been neutered a lot and I think Pant has been terminally destroyed. We just don't let our cricketers be and that's why we lag behind in the format. This is the only reason why I feel Rohit Sharma has been the best overall T20 batsman from India in the last decade. Like AB, he will not have orange caps or fancy averages but the day he fires you will win a cricket match. May be he is not as destructive as Russell or AB, but he gets the job done.

Respond to the rest later- Tired.

Posting here as it is more relevant here.


Absolutely spot on, especially the part about Kohli's approach these days. The first thing I thought to myself when I noticed him play that way versus CSK was "Wow, this guy is never going to get out himself is he, he will be a nightmare to deal with in ODIs if he can take singles at will." Explains his success in ODIs over the last four years. I do feel that he took a look at his playing style in the 2015/16 time period wherein he ascended to captaincy and saw several important SENA tours in the near future with two major 50 over tournaments before the next T20 tournament and decided that it was best for him as the star batsman and captain and for the team if he turned himself into this robotic individual who guarantees runs consistently if he gets a start. You can't deny that it has been a success for him on an individual level, he was the best batsman arguably in the South African and England tours and the heights he reached in 2017-18 as an ODI cricketer were simply incredible. However, I wonder how the future will reflect on this period when India have a Champions Trophy runner-up medal and one Australian tour victory to look back at. There will always be a feeling of "he and the team could have done more with the resources available". I don't think he has any limitations at all, Kohli is genuinely one of the most adaptable and resilient cricketers in the world. Much more than his brilliance with the bat, I would call the former attributes key to his success given how he changed his playing style to go from a bunny in the England tour in 2014 to the imperious monster in 2018. I don't see Russell or most batsmen being capable of that barring the very successful star batsmen such as AbD or Williamson or even Smith if he is willing to put the work in.

Rahul's change in playing style was already apparent last season when he decided to stop playing like the 2018 version of himself and Pant had also changed last year when he tried to start sticking around more often. I still have hope on these two to play much better, think Rahul for the captaincy was a mistake as I believe internationally Shreyas is a much better candidate to be the captain and Rahul's batting and approach seems to be affected when people look up to him as the star man upon whom everything rests. Maybe that explains Rohit's success in Indian colours along with Dhawan's contribution in key tournaments, people don't look to them as the star men who need to stick around every game like they do for a Kohli. Could also explain why the fans have a seething anger towards Pant whenever he gets out quickly, it is because he is not similar to the man he replaces at all in terms of sticking around and grinding a score or taking the game deep.

Rohit in T20s is also a curious case, if you were to wipe the slate clean for internationals and start picking players based on how they've performed in the IPL over the last few years, the batsman you would pick from Mumbai would be SKY and not Rohit considering that the former has nearly 200 more runs over the last three seasons. Despite that, Rohit has been an incredible success in T20Is that you really cannot explain given how he also plays without making good use of the powerplay often. This is why I think it would be a shame if we were to lose him internationally over the upcoming years owing to fitness concerns or other politics as despite MI being a franchise with a policy of "club first" sometimes, Rohit has always been a cricketer with huge passion for the national team and I hope that he works on his fitness to ensure he plays until the 2023 World Cup.

 

[Bevab]

What Has Happened to Rishabh Pant? - CricViz

A very interesting article that illustrates how far ahead of the curve Pant was in the last two seasons and how it is definitely the fault of the current management for not creating an environment that a precocious talent like him could work in.

 

[Akshay.]

What Has Happened to Rishabh Pant? - CricViz

A very interesting article that illustrates how far ahead of the curve Pant was in the last two seasons and how it is definitely the fault of the current management for not creating an environment that a precocious talent like him could work in.

This was the best about him
IPL 2020 - Why Rishabh Pant is perhaps India's first T20 batsman with a T20 attitude

Rashid Khan, Imran Tahir, Jofra Archer and Sunil Narine have all struggled to contain him: the lowest he averages against any of these four bowlers is 32 (Tahir); his lowest strike rate against them is 146 (Khan)