England tour of South Africa

[ShamiLoverGlipGlops]

England's white-ball tour of South Africa next month has finally been given the government go-ahead, and will consist of three T20Is and three ODIs from November 27 to December 9.

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Good cricketing action coming up. World could use some nice bilateral action as well. I wish there was test matches to be played in this series.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

England's white-ball tour of South Africa next month has finally been given the government go-ahead, and will consist of three T20Is and three ODIs from November 27 to December 9.

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Good cricketing action coming up. World could use some nice bilateral action as well. I wish there was test matches to be played in this series.

Aren't they playing too many matches against a depleted South African side? Even West Indies will fancy beating this Proteas side. Although AB de Villiers definitely makes them look strong on paper.

 

[ShamiLoverGlipGlops]

Aren't they playing too many matches against a depleted South African side? Even West Indies will fancy beating this Proteas side. Although AB de Villiers definitely makes them look strong on paper.

Only if ABD is back right? For cricket to function, we need a strong South African side. Look what happened to cricket when West Indies side depleted.

 

[Bevab]

Aren't they playing too many matches against a depleted South African side? Even West Indies will fancy beating this Proteas side. Although AB de Villiers definitely makes them look strong on paper.

This is extremely harsh. South Africa have defeated a nearly full strength Australia and levelled a series versus England. Their T20I results were pretty embarrassing versus Australia but they did draw versus India away and were decently competitive versus England. That pace attack of theirs is extremely fiery and Shamsi has been quite good contrary to expectations coupled with de Kock going super saiyan in a lot of games (still feel they are too much reliant on him but Malan, Klaasen and Verreynne have been proving very useful).

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

This is extremely harsh. South Africa have defeated a nearly full strength Australia and levelled a series versus England. Their T20I results were pretty embarrassing versus Australia but they did draw versus India away and were decently competitive versus England. That pace attack of theirs is extremely fiery and Shamsi has been quite good contrary to expectations coupled with de Kock going super saiyan in a lot of games (still feel they are too much reliant on him but Malan, Klaasen and Verreynne have been proving very useful).

See they aren't bad but West Indies nearly beat India in India last year also they had drawn with England before the World Cup last year. West Indies is a lot stronger now as compared to 2017-18.

 

[Bevab]

See they aren't bad but West Indies nearly beat India in India last year also they had drawn with England before the World Cup last year. West Indies is a lot stronger now as compared to 2017-18.

The same West Indies side also lost all three ODIs versus Sri Lanka though. The England series was them purely relying on Gayle having the series of his life to stay competitive and their batsmen do seem to play spinners decently (something that Australia also did with Khawaja and Handscomb over here when they won their first series in two years, India's tactics are more to blame I believe) which explains how they seem to be competitive versus us. They have improved without any doubt under Pollard but they still need a good spinner (let alone a wrist spinner) and a more consistent bowling attack with a star pacer if they are to be rated on par with South Africa.

South Africa's issue is just inexperience IMO, they've handled their transition phase from that star studded side poorly (but then, most teams would struggle to move on from a golden generation). The lack of opportunities afforded to actual youngsters around whom they could have built their side has hurt them whilst they were handing out debuts to proven domestic players who are still not quite as good to be international regulars or stars. Instead of playing the likes of Paterson, Hendricks (both of them), Jonker, Smuts and Dala who are some of the debutants in the last two years, they should have played the likes of Malan, Verreynne, Fortuin and Dupavillon and others who are much younger and can last for a couple of World Cup cycles at the least instead. Unless you have a Faf or Rassie who are clearly a class above in the domestic scene and deserve chances despite their age, you shouldn't opt for experienced domestic players just because they have the volume of runs at an adequate rate.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

The same West Indies side also lost all three ODIs versus Sri Lanka though. The England series was them purely relying on Gayle having the series of his life to stay competitive and their batsmen do seem to play spinners decently (something that Australia also did with Khawaja and Handscomb over here when they won their first series in two years, India's tactics are more to blame I believe) which explains how they seem to be competitive versus us. They have improved without any doubt under Pollard but they still need a good spinner (let alone a wrist spinner) and a more consistent bowling attack with a star pacer if they are to be rated on par with South Africa.

South Africa's issue is just inexperience IMO, they've handled their transition phase from that star studded side poorly (but then, most teams would struggle to move on from a golden generation). The lack of opportunities afforded to actual youngsters around whom they could have built their side has hurt them whilst they were handing out debuts to proven domestic players who are still not quite as good to be international regulars or stars. Instead of playing the likes of Paterson, Hendricks (both of them), Jonker, Smuts and Dala who are some of the debutants in the last two years, they should have played the likes of Malan, Verreynne, Fortuin and Dupavillon and others who are much younger and can last for a couple of World Cup cycles at the least instead. Unless you have a Faf or Rassie who are clearly a class above in the domestic scene and deserve chances despite their age, you shouldn't opt for experienced domestic players just because they have the volume of runs at an adequate rate.

Thank you for enlightening. You did make a lot of point with that post. I can't disagree to anything you said above.

 

[Aislabie]

I'm going to be honest, the longer England continue with Buttler opening, the longer they are wasting their resources.

Jonny Bairstow
Jason Roy
Dawid Malan
Eoin Morgan
Jos Buttler

That's the top five that needs to be inked in, if not etched on a stone tablet. They're all five in their best positions, all five among the best in the world at those roles.

They'll want Ben Stokes in there somewhere too, but it's worth remembering that his Twenty20 International record is pretty shite. He certainly doesn't merit a place above any of these in the order, nor does he really merit a place in the main five bowling options. That said, he's so influential that he slots in at six as a sort of contingency option.

Ben Stokes

After that, you need the five best bowling options available, ideally at least two of whom ought to be spinners. Their batting ability should be secondary at best. I'm not exactly sure who they are, so I'll edit in once I've looked at the squad but if I was guessing:

David Willey or Sam Curran
Chris Woakes or Tom Curran
Jofra Archer or Mark Wood
Matt Parkinson or Liam Dawson
Adil Rashid

The bowling options are where the real question marks are, mostly because T20 demands very different skills than other formats

 

[RUDI]

Poor dismissals from both SA openers. Faf is looking set, hopefully vd Dussen can get in and take on the Eng bowlers.

 

[Ed Smith]

Definitely forgot this was today...

 

[Bevab]

I'm going to be honest, the longer England continue with Buttler opening, the longer they are wasting their resources.

Jonny Bairstow
Jason Roy
Dawid Malan
Eoin Morgan
Jos Buttler

That's the top five that needs to be inked in, if not etched on a stone tablet. They're all five in their best positions, all five among the best in the world at those roles.

They'll want Ben Stokes in there somewhere too, but it's worth remembering that his Twenty20 International record is pretty shite. He certainly doesn't merit a place above any of these in the order, nor does he really merit a place in the main five bowling options. That said, he's so influential that he slots in at six as a sort of contingency option.

Ben Stokes

After that, you need the five best bowling options available, ideally at least two of whom ought to be spinners. Their batting ability should be secondary at best. I'm not exactly sure who they are, so I'll edit in once I've looked at the squad but if I was guessing:

David Willey or Sam Curran
Chris Woakes or Tom Curran
Jofra Archer or Mark Wood
Matt Parkinson or Liam Dawson
Adil Rashid

The bowling options are where the real question marks are, mostly because T20 demands very different skills than other formats

I really don't think Buttler works as a 'finisher' in T20s. There's ample evidence statistically for that too, he averages less than 25 in the middle order for England and is just around that mark in the IPL. Those numbers shoot up to 40 plus when he opens at a much healthier strike-rate. From what I've seen, Buttler relies on those powerplay boundaries like a traditional accumulator to get going very aggressively and then starts to accumulate plus score the odd boundary. The difference is that he does all of this at a similar consistency (at the least, I would rate him better than most accumulators out there) and a much superior strike-rate compared to your average accumulator. Quite simply put, that is a match winning combination. England also have a luxuriously good batting order to allow Buttler to play in the role he feels most comfortable in. I would want my best players playing in their best roles with one or maybe two other good players adapting to allow them functioning optimally in T20s.

I really don't rate Jason Roy in T20s (and as I say this he gets out, no coincidence!). I just think he is a bit too 'Hail Mary' in his approach to cricket in general and you don't need someone who is a glorified pinch-hitter in T20s when the others are already aggressive. It works well in ODIs because he usually shocks the opening bowlers out of their rhythm with his pure aggression with which he recently brought in a blend of calmness that he previously did not have prior to regaining his place from Hales. I see that Bairstow has an equally average record in T20s but whether it is due to the latter being a consistent batsman in the IPL or his ability to deal with spinners better, I would rather back him. With how scratchy Jason Roy has been looking in recent times and your own assessment of him not being a good enough prospect long-term for the next ODI World Cup, alternative options should be explored.

Stokes is the main conundrum, he is no longer someone who can come in and hit right from ball one. I think Rajasthan had the right idea by batting him higher up the order, just not at the expense of Buttler or even Samson/Smith. I would say that he is best suited at the moment to a number three or four role, he can accumulate and also look to score before getting set for a big finish in that role. I don't think his style of bowling without many of the variations that other all-rounders seem to have these days would work in T20s usually, any overs from him should be viewed as a bonus. In any case, I would have Morgan down at five or even six. He looks comfortable when he walks in and just hits these days (his ODI numbers point to him transitioning from the dynamic accumulator to just a pure hitter), he does have ample experience and a better record down at five than four. He is absolutely worth having in there when the rest prefer to be batting higher up and I think he recognizes this too which is why he seems to be batting at five more these days.

That would give us a lineup with

YJB
Jos
Malan
Stokes
Morgan
?
Sam Curran/Willey
Tom Curran
Archer
Rashid
Wood/Parkinson

Parkinson's a very good player but I think he still needs some more experience before becoming a first-team option despite the lack of an obvious second spinner. It's been five years since Woakes played a T20I, he was world class earlier this year but I don't think he is likely to be in the mix. Unless...

He happens to get that number six spot sewn up. Bit of a risk as you don't really need another bowler in there but having him in there means you can have Dawson in at seven and have that second spinner and also some batting depth in case you need someone to arrest quick fall of wickets. Speaking of a collapse.. Joe Root could also serve a role similar to that of his brother Billy by being a floating anchor if his bowling can withstand consistent international standards of batting. The most ideal player to play at six would be prime Moeen Ali but that is increasingly looking like a pipe dream these days.

 

[Bevab]

I see that Bairstow has an equally average record in T20s but whether it is due to the latter being a consistent batsman in the IPL or his ability to deal with spinners better, I would rather back him.

Beuran Hendricks probably cost the match for South Africa with that dreadful over. Everyone else was taking pace off the ball while he went full and hard, got smashed predictably.

 

[Ed Smith]

Not really sure what Hendricks was thinking with that over, had he not seen anyone else bowl?

 

[RUDI]

Good debut from Linde. Shamsi, however rated 4th in T20I didn't impress. Hendricks Nortje . De Kock, Du Plessis, Morris, Rabada, Nortje and Ngidi fresh of a decent IPL. Van Biljon isn't doing badly in the domestic circuit, but I'd rather have a good allrounder like Morris in for him.

I'd go with this lineup for tomorrow's matchup:

1. Q. De Kock
2. R. Hendricks
3. F du Plessis
4. R Vd Dussen
5. H Klaasen
6. C Morris
7. G Linde
8. K Rabada
9. A. Nortje
10. L Ngidi
11. T Shamzi

 

[Yash.]

Just saw yesterday’s highlights! What a scintillating batting performance it was from Rassie vd Dussen and Dawid Malan (right until the last ball where he tweaked up the calculation for his century)