Pakistan's tour of England - August/September - 3 Tests/3 T20Is

LiveLoveABD

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This is what happens when you overhype your players when they show flashes but have not proved themselves.

Azam and Shah will both prosper in England but all these comparisons by their media to the "fab 4" and Dennis Lillee. HILARIOUS!

Waiting for the same idiots to now bury these poor young kids.
 

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but all these comparisons by their media to the "fab 4"
There is a genuine case for Babar in the Fab 5.
Can’t answer the rest of your post, because I don’t watch Pakistani media.
 

LiveLoveABD

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There is a genuine case for Babar in the Fab 5.
Can’t answer the rest of your post, because I don’t watch Pakistani media.

The "Fab4" itself is a load of bulls!t.

Joe Root is not in that category by any stretch of the imagination although he could revitalise his claim to it with a few good years.

Virat Kohli is his own category in LOI. The rest are all a level below.

Azam has got some tons in Australia on flat decks and that's it. He's a finished product in ODI's but he's not even top 10 in T20I's. Again, he's a bit like what Virat Kohli was before he truly became Virat Kohli. I think he can become even better but he needs to gain some strength and power and add a dimension to his game to get there. He does not have it now.
 

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The "Fab4" itself is a load of bulls!t.

Joe Root is not in that category by any stretch of the imagination although he could revitalise his claim to it with a few good years.

Virat Kohli is his own category in LOI. The rest are all a level below.

Azam has got some tons in Australia on flat decks and that's it. He's a finished product in ODI's but he's not even top 10 in T20I's. Again, he's a bit like what Virat Kohli was before he truly became Virat Kohli. I think he can become even better but he needs to gain some strength and power and add a dimension to his game to get there. He does not have it now.

I'd say a 'Dynamic Duo' of Smith and Kohli is more realistic. Kohli in every format and Smith just so good in tests to elevate what he may lack in the other formats. I'd put Root and Williamson just below them, I'd put Williamson ahead in tests but Root has been very, very good in ODI cricket the last few years. Probably under the radar because of Bairstow's emergence.

I'd say Babar is nearing the second tier overall, a few more hundreds in test cricket and coming to England and doing the business as Kohli came back and did a couple of years ago. I don't think doing it in England is the be all and end all but it's the hardest place to get consistent big runs.
 

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Was watching the highlights and was surprised by the very subdued celebration by Crawley on reaching the double ton. Also nice to see the fist bumps after Crawley's dismissal. Sub-continental teams usually do not show that appreciation, but I think that's changing for the better.

@CerealKiller Your collapse seems to be on the way. Predicting some useful runs by Rizwan and Pakistan folding under 150-180-ish.
 

Fenil

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Shafiq is one player I was once a fan of but he has been on and off form player for way too long now.

I just hope that he does not score big and seal his place again. I'd prefer watching the youngster Haider Ali instead of him.
 

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I'd say a 'Dynamic Duo' of Smith and Kohli is more realistic. Kohli in every format and Smith just so good in tests to elevate what he may lack in the other formats. I'd put Root and Williamson just below them, I'd put Williamson ahead in tests but Root has been very, very good in ODI cricket the last few years. Probably under the radar because of Bairstow's emergence.

I'd say Babar is nearing the second tier overall, a few more hundreds in test cricket and coming to England and doing the business as Kohli came back and did a couple of years ago. I don't think doing it in England is the be all and end all but it's the hardest place to get consistent big runs.
I would like to add to the Williamson argument. Sorry for the long post.

I feel Kane Williamson is quite under rated like the rest of the Kiwi side. I believe he is one such batsman who is suitable for all 3 formats of the game. Actually speaking Kohli is a beast but Williamson is quite consistent in his own way. Irrespective whether it seams, swings or spins you would see that guy batting out innings. There is a bit of Tendulkar in Williamson, no matter how poorly the team would do he would always be there. I think 2019 World Cup is a prime example of Williamson's stature as a batsman. I see people always brought out the fact he can't play T20 Cricket but then he was ready to change that belief. 2018 IPL when David Warner got suspended Williamson not just took the role of Warner's Captaincy but his batting as well suggests how good he is adjusting with the format and conditions along with handling pressure. Whenever we talk about greatest batsman from New Zealand, Kane Williamson will always be there. I know there is Fleming but what I feel is Williamson is even better than him.[DOUBLEPOST=1598164539][/DOUBLEPOST]
Sub-continental teams usually do not show that appreciation, but I think that's changing for the better.
You can call it MSD effect. :D

I feel actually it was Ganguly and Imran Khan who always appreciated their opponents if they performed well.
 

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Shafiq is one player I was once a fan of but he has been on and off form player for way too long now.

I just hope that he does not score big and seal his place again. I'd prefer watching the youngster Haider Ali instead of him.
Shafiq used to be my favorite player at one point in time. Now, I want him to be removed from the XI
 

AsadRM

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Man, I am starting to lose interest in this Pakistan team. I watched only a single over yesterday. Previously, I'd never even miss a single over.

Yes, we know Pakistan is mercurial and unpredictable but currently, it is just exceptionally poor at times.

This is good once in a while but now I'm anything but unaccustomed to these defeats and losses.

Now, wait for Zimbabwe to tour in October and whitewash them 3-0. We'll consider ourselves world-beaters again and get humiliated in New Zealand next month.
 

Bevab

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The 'Fab Four' has essentially lost all it's meaning now.

When Crowe introduced that term, it was just to group together four players who were supposed to have a similar career trajectory and have a successful career. And for the most part it has been true; they've all been leaders for their sides (shame on you Smith!), they've all averaged above 50 (shame on you Root!) and they've all been worthy contenders for the title of the greatest batsman that their country has arguably produced. At no point was it meant to say that 'these four lads are going to be the best batsmen in all formats till the end of their careers' and that is how I think it should be seen. It is just the media all over the world doing it's job trying to hype up these four.

While two players essentially dominate red ball and white ball cricket respectively, I don't think there is a huge difference between the other three in the other formats (although Root's terrible form in tests, captaincy or not might have a thing to say about it soon). Smith may not average that low in ODIs overall but he averages 54 as a number three which is his best position. Similarly Root's impact may not be as good in a setup that isn't packed to the brim with power hitters. And neither of them would fare badly in T20s were they to focus on it consistently instead of the odd BBL stint. We definitely get bogged down too much on the comparisons sometimes, it is rare that we get to see four high quality batsmen playing and peaking at the same time and like the 80s all-rounders battles, we may not realise how good we had it until they are gone.

Re Azam; I can't think of ten batsmen that are a better option than him in T20s. Off the top of my head in no particular order

  • Buttler
  • Warner
  • Finch
  • Kohli
  • Rohit
  • Maxwell
  • Rahul

These are the players I would place over Azam for sure and some of them are doubtful too. While he does have some issues with being aggressive at times, his strike-rate has soared beyond 130 over the last two years and for an accumulator like him that is quite good. You cannot accuse of him of stat-padding either as he averages above 40 versus all but Sri Lanka and has a fifty in nearly every three games internationally. How long does he have to play well (and he is improving which is the scary though, imagine how much better he could be!) for people to acknowledge him as a world-class batter in T20s?
 

Bevab

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Man, I am starting to lose interest in this Pakistan team. I watched only a single over yesterday. Previously, I'd never even miss a single over.

Yes, we know Pakistan is mercurial and unpredictable but currently, it is just exceptionally poor at times.

This is good once in a while but now I'm anything but unaccustomed to these defeats and losses.

Now, wait for Zimbabwe to tour in October and whitewash them 3-0. We'll consider ourselves world-beaters again and get humiliated in New Zealand next month.

I don't think there is anything mercurial in the side, they just seem weak in terms of actual skill. Shafiq and Azhar should have been dropped quite some time ago and none of the pacers barring Abbas have experience and Abbas himself is a relative newbie on the international scene. They are more prone to spells of inconsistency and erratic bowling. With Yasir being in his bust cycle currently, the only players Pakistan have to rely on for consistency are Masood, Azam, Rizwan and Abbas. When you see that all four of them still have areas of improvement, you know that the team is still not ready for competing at the elite level consistently. Someone like Shah is the perfect example, plenty of his wickets have been from the 'wonder ball' or the unplayable one, but relying on it exclusively without proper accuracy to keep the batsman in check means that he will have very bad days like today. Something like that is possible only with more experience. An experienced seamer in here could do a world of good, a shame that Amir could no longer play as he would have been perfect in that rotated role.
 

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The 'Fab Four' has essentially lost all it's meaning now.

When Crowe introduced that term, it was just to group together four players who were supposed to have a similar career trajectory and have a successful career. And for the most part it has been true; they've all been leaders for their sides (shame on you Smith!), they've all averaged above 50 (shame on you Root!) and they've all been worthy contenders for the title of the greatest batsman that their country has arguably produced. At no point was it meant to say that 'these four lads are going to be the best batsmen in all formats till the end of their careers' and that is how I think it should be seen. It is just the media all over the world doing it's job trying to hype up these four.

While two players essentially dominate red ball and white ball cricket respectively, I don't think there is a huge difference between the other three in the other formats (although Root's terrible form in tests, captaincy or not might have a thing to say about it soon). Smith may not average that low in ODIs overall but he averages 54 as a number three which is his best position. Similarly Root's impact may not be as good in a setup that isn't packed to the brim with power hitters. And neither of them would fare badly in T20s were they to focus on it consistently instead of the odd BBL stint. We definitely get bogged down too much on the comparisons sometimes, it is rare that we get to see four high quality batsmen playing and peaking at the same time and like the 80s all-rounders battles, we may not realise how good we had it until they are gone.

Re Azam; I can't think of ten batsmen that are a better option than him in T20s. Off the top of my head in no particular order

  • Buttler
  • Warner
  • Finch
  • Kohli
  • Rohit
  • Maxwell
  • Rahul

These are the players I would place over Azam for sure and some of them are doubtful too. While he does have some issues with being aggressive at times, his strike-rate has soared beyond 130 over the last two years and for an accumulator like him that is quite good. You cannot accuse of him of stat-padding either as he averages above 40 versus all but Sri Lanka and has a fifty in nearly every three games internationally. How long does he have to play well (and he is improving which is the scary though, imagine how much better he could be!) for people to acknowledge him as a world-class batter in T20s?
Exactly, he’s not a Kohli type player who will try to dominate the opposition and finish the match with a rain of boundaries, or a Warner type player, whose job is to get 70 runs in the powerplay. His job is to get us to 90 after 10 overs, get a decent fifty off 30-35 balls, and then take off if he can. @Aislabie would call him a dynamic accumulator. In that role, there isn’t anyone better.
 

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