Sep 30- Australia v South Africa

War

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Think Parnell was very effective in 09 T20 WC, so I am assuming hes sort of done a good job domestically as a T20 hence the selection. Dont think he is an allrounder though

Since that 09 T20 WC he has done nothing of note at international level since then.

My suspicion although as it always is with S Africa is that given that he is a coloured player with talent, he is being constantly picked in the national set-up over the more proven white player.
 

Aalay

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Amla should never have been picked. He is not a T20 player and it was always folly to pick him when he had never proven he had the skills for this form of the game.

I don't know why are you keep saying this. For me Levi is the guy who does not deserve to be there. He looks completely clueless. Yeh he made a 100 but nothing afterwards. I guess Amla is doing a better job then him at least. And therefor I bring my point again of bringing Greame Smith back into the lineup as he is much better player then Levi. I agree on your point of Colin Ingram or David miller coming into the squad. I don't know what Ontong is doing in the squad as he is completely useless so they should have brought one of Colin or David
 

spooony

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Since that 09 T20 WC he has done nothing of note at international level since then.

My suspicion although as it always is with S Africa is that given that he is a coloured player with talent, he is being constantly picked in the national set-up over the more proven white player.

That is the problem. We have affirmative action in cricket. Which is ridiculous. Instead of choosing your best eleven we have choose xxx amount of players if he is good enough or not. How do you take talent away from a person of a different color and give it to someone else? So what if the best 11 of the country is all white black brown yellow pink or whatever. If they are the best 11 they are representing your country with pride no matter whats your skin color. In the end we all have red blood and all are the same race the human race.

The same thing with rugby. It is really difficult for us to stay competitive and weaken our teams by choosing skin color over talent. Imagine if Australia had quotas saying there must this amount of natives in their teams. This destroyed our once competitive Netball and Hockey teams. Our netball players went and played for Australia and New Zealand they were world class. Due to this was the reason Cronje said stuff this I am going to hear what the bookies have to offer.

Most black people do not give a damn about Rugby or cricket. 1 or 2 start to play it about 10 out of a 100 000. So the talent pool is very small compared to white people who is almost the first two sports we play when we open up our eyes. Black people are more interested in football. But politicians want our rugby and cricket teams to look like the football teams in terms of representation. Which is absurd. A South African is a South African there is no color. Colored people which comes from the Western Cape prefer cricket and rugby as well but they are small in numbers.

So they just pick any guy like Ontong and throw him into the deep end like they did with Australia. Against a Aussie team which was bashing everyone in test cricket the sports minister said he is going to withdraw the SA team from international cricket if they did not include Ontong. He did not do it because of he was thinking of giving a player the opportunity but to score points with politicians.

In 2002 they dropped Jacques Rudolph to play Justin Ontong here is the story about it
IOL | News for South Africa and the world
 

War

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I don't know why are you keep saying this. For me Levi is the guy who does not deserve to be there. He looks completely clueless. Yeh he made a 100 but nothing afterwards. I guess Amla is doing a better job then him at least. And therefor I bring my point again of bringing Greame Smith back into the lineup as he is much better player then Levi. I agree on your point of Colin Ingram or David miller coming into the squad. I don't know what Ontong is doing in the squad as he is completely useless so they should have brought one of Colin or David

Going into the tournament Levi didn't look clueless and many thought he would become S Africa's version of Warner. However he has failed and look out of his depth in the tournament.

Amla just shouldn't have been picked. Even now that Levi has failed, Du Plessis can still open as he showed in the IPL.

Kallis role as batsman has also been compromised because it is as an open in the IPL that he has rejuvenated his t20 game. Now in this tournament he seems lost @ # 3.
 

War

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That is the problem. We have affirmative action in cricket. Which is ridiculous. Instead of choosing your best eleven we have choose xxx amount of players if he is good enough or not. How do you take talent away from a person of a different color and give it to someone else? So what if the best 11 of the country is all white black brown yellow pink or whatever. If they are the best 11 they are representing your country with pride no matter whats your skin color. In the end we all have red blood and all are the same race the human race.

The same thing with rugby. It is really difficult for us to stay competitive and weaken our teams by choosing skin color over talent. Imagine if Australia had quotas saying there must this amount of natives in their teams. This destroyed our once competitive Netball and Hockey teams. Our netball players went and played for Australia and New Zealand they were world class. Due to this was the reason Cronje said stuff this I am going to hear what the bookies have to offer.

Most black people do not give a damn about Rugby or cricket. 1 or 2 start to play it about 10 out of a 100 000. So the talent pool is very small compared to white people who is almost the first two sports we play when we open up our eyes. Black people are more interested in football. But politicians want our rugby and cricket teams to look like the football teams in terms of representation. Which is absurd. A South African is a South African there is no color. Colored people which comes from the Western Cape prefer cricket and rugby as well but they are small in numbers.

So they just pick any guy like Ontong and throw him into the deep end like they did with Australia. Against a Aussie team which was bashing everyone in test cricket the sports minister said he is going to withdraw the SA team from international cricket if they did not include Ontong. He did not do it because of he was thinking of giving a player the opportunity but to score points with politicians.

In 2002 they dropped Jacques Rudolph to play Justin Ontong here is the story about it
IOL | News for South Africa and the world

Ye this is problem basically in a nutshell. Most black people in S Africa don't even like cricket.

S Africa cricket board along with the government should collaborate to try and make the Africans in those communities like cricket more, by investing properly in their territories instead of these dumb quota selections.

Also making cricket on tv free for everyone to see in South Africa. I say this because i have S Africa friend who tells me, when S Africa go on tour unless you have payed TV you can't follow the team - which pretty much rules out the majority of vast African population.

S Africa generally though since readmission in 1992, tend to have strong enough teams to be able to mask their quota selection.

Other than the Rudolph/Ontong incident in 2002 - i recall the Ntini incident in 2009 vs England. When Ntini way passed his best, the selectors due to government pressure had to pick until he played his 100th test - while keeping out the in form white bowler in Fridel De Wet.
 

6ry4nj

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Ye this is problem basically in a nutshell. Most black people in S Africa don't even like cricket.
I doubt it. You like what you're good at.

If you're playing on asphalt with a tennis ball, a plank for a bat and crates for wickets, because only white schools can afford cricket equipment, you won't feel very ambitious to succeed - consequently you won't 'like' the game as much. Same goes if you've got the equipment but can't get adequate coaches/training etc. Ditto if you've got all that but can't get admitted to the competition for some bureaucratic reason or other.

When 'institutional' racism (as in apartheid) is done away with, 'structural' racism can hang around and undo all the good work - if you're not careful. Look at the US - it was a full century from freeing the slaves to civil rights - rights which included getting served in shops and choosing your own seat on the bus!

That's why quotas are needed. If you have to rant and rail, rail against the structural racism that makes quotas necessary. It's thoroughly cynical - and suspect - to make like the quotas are the crime.
 

War

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I doubt it. You like what you're good at.

If you're playing on asphalt with a tennis ball, a plank for a bat and crates for wickets, because only white schools can afford cricket equipment, you won't feel very ambitious to succeed - consequently you won't 'like' the game as much. Same goes if you've got the equipment but can't get adequate coaches/training etc. Ditto if you've got all that but can't get admitted to the competition for some bureaucratic reason or other.

When 'institutional' racism (as in apartheid) is done away with, 'structural' racism can hang around and undo all the good work - if you're not careful. Look at the US - it was a full century from freeing the slaves to civil rights - rights which included getting served in shops and choosing your own seat on the bus!

That's why quotas are needed. If you have to rant and rail, rail against the structural racism that makes quotas necessary. It's thoroughly cynical - and suspect - to make like the quotas are the crime.

Oh yes no doubt the structural racism is certainly present with regards to the only white schools can afford to play cricket because they are financially equipped. The local TV stations do not broadcast cricket unless its a tour to SA. The domestic championships and oversees tours are been televised on the pay channels which most ppl cant afford.

But in speaking to my fellow African friends for years, the flip is that the government which is run by the African president since readmission, have not done enough to invest in the black communities to try and bridge the enthusiasm gap. They just blindly enforcing the quota's.

The majority of Africans in SA dont like cricket because of the historical racial stigma that comes with the sport, while the whites in SA view football as the black man sport. Crazy stuff.

When Ntini was the star player and most popular athlete in SA for the last decade - that was the perfect time to push and invest in cricket in the African communities - but they didn't. So every once in a while still we will see a S African squad/XI where an obvious quota coloured player is going to picked over a more proven white player - which is disappointing.
 

spooony

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I doubt it. You like what you're good at.

If you're playing on asphalt with a tennis ball, a plank for a bat and crates for wickets, because only white schools can afford cricket equipment, you won't feel very ambitious to succeed - consequently you won't 'like' the game as much. Same goes if you've got the equipment but can't get adequate coaches/training etc. Ditto if you've got all that but can't get admitted to the competition for some bureaucratic reason or other.

When 'institutional' racism (as in apartheid) is done away with, 'structural' racism can hang around and undo all the good work - if you're not careful. Look at the US - it was a full century from freeing the slaves to civil rights - rights which included getting served in shops and choosing your own seat on the bus!

That's why quotas are needed. If you have to rant and rail, rail against the structural racism that makes quotas necessary. It's thoroughly cynical - and suspect - to make like the quotas are the crime.
Firstly its been 20 since our country changed fully democratic. 20 Years!

2nd Affirmitive action belongs in the business sector not sport. You can see in the business sector if candidates have equal qualifications and then choose the ethnic group that was so called disadvantage.

But how do you do that with talent? Do a talent scout say this guy and this guy have equal talent? Then turns out scout was wrong as you can spot talent but you can't predict how that talent will mature. What if the scout was crap? You can't implement such things in sport.

Show me one country who successfully implemented Affirmitive action in Sport and manage to be world beaters?

Remember what happened to Zimbabwe cricket? That is where SA is heading.
 

spooony

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Oh yes no doubt the structural racism is certainly present with regards to the only white schools can afford to play cricket because they are financially equipped. The local TV stations do not broadcast cricket unless its a tour to SA. The domestic championships and oversees tours are been televised on the pay channels which most ppl cant afford.

But in speaking to my fellow African friends for years, the flip is that the government which is run by the African president since readmission, have not done enough to invest in the black communities to try and bridge the enthusiasm gap. They just blindly enforcing the quota's.

The majority of Africans in SA dont like cricket because of the historical racial stigma that comes with the sport, while the whites in SA view football as the black man sport. Crazy stuff.

When Ntini was the star player and most popular athlete in SA for the last decade - that was the perfect time to push and invest in cricket in the African communities - but they didn't. So every once in a while still we will see a S African squad/XI where an obvious quota coloured player is going to picked over a more proven white player - which is disappointing.

There is no such things as white only schools.

We have 11 officials languages. If your afrikaans then you will go to afrikaans school. If you are english you go to English school Xhosa you go to Xhosa school etc etc. Its your choice basically but normally the white and colored people populate the afrikaans school as well as the English but you will find a small percentage people black people will also go to a english school. But you won't find white people go to Xhosa speaking school basically as its not their mother tongue.

All the schools get subsidy or donations and no matter what if they apply they get even if its a mat to roll out anywhere.

Do not confuse the traditional sporting schools as whites only school.

This is basically what happens. I am going to use Grey College as a example as its known almost to every person and they produced a lot og SA sport stars.

Lets say you play cricket at some small school in a town which can't be seen from google maps cause there is a tree in the way. Now you have some talent and do well then you will get poached normally by some Boys only agricultural school when you hit grade 6 (14 years old). Then when you perform there in a better school league the big name schools like Grey College will poach you instead and give you a bursury and all that sort of thing having access to gyms, some of the best coaches etc etc until you go to a academy and provincial team .

So no matter what if your good enough you will get spotted and poached by some school because school sports is very competitive. Just have a look at players who comes from Eastern Cape but went to Grey College in the Freestate. Those scouts miss nothing. So that of this school or this white only school gets more opportunity is b.s. As no matter what the color if your good some top school will poach you.

Plus starting to give players of color opportunities did not starting in 1992. Errol Tobias played Rugby for SA in 1984 against the Jacquars. WP had a A team called WP league playing in Currie Cup B section. It was players of all different ethnic groups playing with each other. Unfortunately some of those oaks played in the same era as one of WP greatest teams who won Currie Cup A competition 5 times in a row and did not play A team because of color but due to legends of yester year keeping them out. Yes some of them did get chance to play for A team and was not on same level as the guy who kept them out of the team.
 

6ry4nj

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Firstly its been 20 since our country changed fully democratic. 20 Years!

And I already answered that. In the US they took their usual laissez-faire approach and failed to be proactive, so it was 100 years (100 Years!) before they did anything about the business-as-usual racism that continued after the slaves were freed. Hopefully/thankfully SA is not making the same mistake, and if there's some slight inconvenience caused to the whites in the meantime, so be it!

2nd Affirmitive action belongs in the business sector not sport. You can see in the business sector if candidates have equal qualifications and then choose the ethnic group that was so called disadvantage.

But how do you do that with talent? Do a talent scout say this guy and this guy have equal talent? Then turns out scout was wrong as you can spot talent but you can't predict how that talent will mature. What if the scout was crap? You can't implement such things in sport.
You can always find some sort of 'tie-breaker' to decide between candidates. There is absolutely no difference between the sport and the employment case - in fact the sport case is precisely about employment!

Show me one country who successfully implemented Affirmitive action in Sport and manage to be world beaters?

Remember what happened to Zimbabwe cricket? That is where SA is heading.
Any country or countries (some still haven't) that failed to abolish slavery until this late in the piece will have some inconvenience to endure while they catch up with the rest of the world. If affirmative action results in worse performances (and of course it doesn't it's just another puerile excuse), then it's in everyone's interest to see that the playing field gets levelled for non-white South Africans, because once that happens, quotas will no longer be needed.

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There is no such things as white only schools.....If your afrikaans then you will go to afrikaans school.
Listen to yourself! I bet all the Afrikaans-speaking Zulus and Xhosas would be flocking to the Afrikaans-language school:rolleyes, if it weren't for the fact that Afrikaans is only spoken by whites...:facepalm Only by whites = whites only...

The trouble with the foolproof scouting system is either:
- that it is clearly not working, since it fails to find non-white players that meet with your approval; or
- that it finds the right non-white players, but then has to contend with this torrent of nonsense about the $!#@& quotas buggering everything up...
 

spooony

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And I already answered that. In the US they took their usual laissez-faire approach and failed to be proactive, so it was 100 years (100 Years!) before they did anything about the business-as-usual racism that continued after the slaves were freed. Hopefully/thankfully SA is not making the same mistake, and if there's some slight inconvenience caused to the whites in the meantime, so be it!
Please do not compare the US with South Africa. Completely different and that was 100 of years a go. The world has changed has become more civilized. I grew up in SA and there were no slaves. No one owned sell any human being. In fact De Beers and the Englishmen behind them where the only benefactors from Apartheid and WERE the only ONES to have profited from Apartheid. No one else did. They had 1000000 of mine workers at their disposal and they had them for cheap. They funded both sides. The more the one side made trouble the more laws the other side made the cheaper the labor cost were to them. To keep the foreign trading they in the public eye supported the ANC but benefitted from apartheid.

Then in 1986 PW Botha realized this and did a thing which was the beginning and the process that sparked the road to the abolish of apartheid. What did he do? He gave those workers rights. Yes they had rights and now could demand higher salaries and treated like equal human being like they were suppose to after almost 60 years of De Beers sucking them dry and paying them jack.

Suddenly De Beers let a lot of those workers and made a run for it to rather African countries which they can do the same like in Angola. De Beers owns the steel gold and diamond mines and control the circulation of daimonds. Russia is starting to challenge them and breach the agreement and go in other markets to sell theirs. Any other diamond business jewelers everything have to sell and buy through them at their set prices otherwise they will get kicked out and no one wants to business with them. A daimon actually cost around 10 dollars each and they are not that rare at all. De Beers has billions and billions of them and they just make sure they release only bit by bit into the market at their price. That way it will stay rare and valuable.

I grew up on a farm and my friends were the black kids on the farm. They lived in farm houses. Had electricity. They received free food like meat vegetables, maize meal as well as a pay check. That black farm worker had to run the farm when the farmer went out on business or anything like that. Black people nor any other ethnic groups other than white did not have to pay taxes so what a lot of Pakistan and Indian guys did was put away their tax free profits from their businesses and were stinking rich by 1992. In the small towns where racism where a lot higher every corner will be a shop owned by Portuguese a Indian or a guy from Pakistan. We are talking about town with a population of a couple of 1000. They lived between the white people they were treated like they treated any other human bein gBlack people could walk where ever they want as in the 80's that passes one had to have to go here was actually forgotten as kids were growing up with black people around them but did not know actually what was going on. We were kids we had no interest in politics or cared about it all we wanted to do was played. We grew up with the farm workers kids I even slept over there ate there and they drove the vehicles around as they are the farmers right hand man. That improved and improved and kept on improving till 1992.

Off course there are the few bad apples on both sides like extreme radical groups but that you find in every country.

You can always find some sort of 'tie-breaker' to decide between candidates. There is absolutely no difference between the sport and the employment case - in fact the sport case is precisely about employment!
A tie breaker? What is this Gladiator. How do you do a tie braker. Throw them both in your national team see them get crushed spirits demolished and then never live up to their potential? You can not do development at a top national level. You do it at a lower end which is what we doing. They go to acedemy's where they get trained and looked after by the best coaches of the unions and further assessed. If you do not cut it then you are not good enough and that means the top talent will go through a thing called ranks and gets the chance he deserves. You can not skip all that throw him ion against Australia and say swim. Do you think Australia is going to feel sorry for this lad who is out of his depth and league and play nice? No they are going to destroy him. That is the professional world. You can get away with flaws and certain things at lower levels but at the highest international stage you are going to be find out get weighed measured and will end up damage goods that never recovered.

Any country or countries (some still haven't) that failed to abolish slavery until this late in the piece will have some inconvenience to endure while they catch up with the rest of the world. If affirmative action results in worse performances (and of course it doesn't it's just another puerile excuse), then it's in everyone's interest to see that the playing field gets levelled for non-white South Africans, because once that happens, quotas will no longer be needed.
Again quotas is skipping the ranks of development. You should judge people by what they do - it's wrong to judge people by their race, colour or creed. Everyone should be free to play; selection should be based on merit.
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Listen to yourself! I bet all the Afrikaans-speaking Zulus and Xhosas would be flocking to the Afrikaans-language school:rolleyes, if it weren't for the fact that Afrikaans is only spoken by whites...:facepalm Only by whites = whites only...
Now that I find really insulting. Here is a bloke thousands of miles away behind a computer wants to tell me who speak only what language in SA, a country where I have been living in for all of my young 34 year old life. Then to get it so wrong with everything to add to it.

First of all I am not white. I am mixed race as my dad is White my mom cape colored like Hershelle Gibbs is like Brain Habana is. Now you can also see where we get our love of rugby and cricket background from. . White people speak English and Afrikaans. Most white people in Natal speak English as do a lot of white people living in Cape Town etc etc. In the Freestate you will find the white people speaking Afrikaans mainly and Pretoria. But those cities are smaller than Cape Town, Johannesburg and Durban.

THE MAJORITY in the Western Cape are the colored people aka the Cape Colored and 99 percent of us speak Afrikaans and a handful English. That perception of white people speak Afrikaans is wrong I do not know where you heard that but you should check your source or try and ask a South African what is going in South Africa. If you click on that embedded link I nicely added for you you can have a read about my ethnic groups background and what languages we speak and I am sure you will find Afrikaans and English as the first mentioned.

Just to add in the Apartheids years a third African language like Xhosa, Tswana or Zulu was compulsory and we had to do it as a third language. Funny thing is when it ended they took that away. Which is strange as one would thought it would be the other way around.

The trouble with the foolproof scouting system is either:
- that it is clearly not working, since it fails to find non-white players that meet with your approval; or
- that it finds the right non-white players, but then has to contend with this torrent of nonsense about the $!#@& quotas buggering everything up..
Excuse me? What are you on about?
Hershelle Gibbs, Chester Williams, Brain Habana, Hasim Amla, Errol Tobias, Breyton Paulse, Eddy Andrews, Mhakaya Ntini, Tshami Tsolikile, Alvera Peterson, Gio Aplon, JP Petersen, Tonderai Chavanga, Elton Jantjies, Paul Adams, Vincent Barnes, Jean-Paul Duminy, Omar Henry, Garnett Kruger, Charl Langeveldt, Ashwell Prince, Robin Peterson, Wayne Parnell, Conrad Jantjes, Ashwin Willemse, Ricky Januarie, Bolla Conradie, Benni McCarthy
Mark Williams, Shaun Bartlett, Andre Arendse, Delron Buckley, Quinton Fortune, Lance Davids, Nasief Morris, Leroy Maluka, Steven Pienaar, Moeneeb Josephs, Shaun Dundee and this is mostly from the top of my head. Most came through the scouting process, mostwent to "top schools" Afrikaans and English.

So you are basically making up things without the slightest of clue that is going on. Hershelle Gibbs was 16 years old when he was given the chance to play for WP that was before racial quotas was introduced. Racial quotas was only introduced after 1999
 
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