Facing the facts of history - Windies greater than Aussies

[shubhrayu]

Well Shub i still remember the convo we had on msn about the same (Team which we support) and the reasons which you gave very really pathetic and something to laugh off

WI is really a good side especially Chris Gayle but can't say they are better than the Aussies just to the same level? or Not.

I don't care what of what you guys say.I follow Australian Criket that's all.Well if you understand the game then you would'nt've laughed on my reason.

 

[Dare]

According to the logic on this forum (By King Pietersen, ZoraxDoom and Dare), if Wally Hammond had've played in the same era as Gary Sobers then Wally Hammond would've averaged over 80 in Test Cricket. Why? Because Hammond played in the Depression era and Sobers didn't and of course, you'd imagine that the equipment and pitches would've been allot worse in his generation aswell compared to the one that Sobers played in.

Sobers started playing cricket in the 50s so he wasn't really that far of the pitches that Hammond played on.
The simple fact is that the pitches that the WI played on were allot different than the ones the players play today. And I have no doubt that they would have been better players on these flat tracks today.
But your ignorance and lack of knowledge of WI cricket of the past blinds you.

One simple Question How many world cups do Windies have Aussies have 3?

WI won the 1st 2 WC.

 

[cricketfrantic]

I am not quite sure how many of the posters replied here that includes me too, have watched the westindies team played during their dominance.

So I am not getting into the debate who is better n who's not on my own discretion, but history does tell something n that is what History is all about, so from what I have HEARD from people who have watched them play N READ on other forums, credible websites like CRICINFO, one thing is for sure:

1. West Indies had the most fearsome bowling line up in the world n that is a fact.
2. They had the most dynamic player to have played the game VIV RICHARDS.
3. GARY SOBERS was the GREATEST ALL ROUNDER the game has ever seen.
4. They had CLIVE LLOYD one of the best captains to have led the side who took westindies to three world cup finals n winning two of them.

On that basis man to man (mostly in the squad) there is little doubt who is better or on par.

The talk of Ricky ponting being greater than VIV Richards (not quite sure), with Brian Lara is debatable.

Australia no doubt had the Greatest Fast bowler of his generation, along with shane the greatest spinner world has seen, and there should be no any doubt about their GREATNESS as such notwithstanding their onfield behaviour.

PS: Australia did lose to India in 2001 in India.

 

[Cricketman]

West Indian Invincibles >> Australia.

I mean, even our crappy 2001 team managed to beat the Australian's at their peak.

 

[aussie_ben91]

The West Indies at their peak wouldn't of beaten India in 2001 either. Their pace bowlers wouldn't of been able to get the ball above stump height on the Indian pitches and would've been murdered by Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dravid and Laxman. They didn't have any quality spinners either. Their batsman would've also been bamboozled by Harbhajan and Kumble as they never got to face quality spin in the 1970s and 1980s, which both decades were dominated by quality pacemen.

Gary Sobers wasn't apart of the great Windies side of the 70s and 80s so adding him in the team is pointless. That would be like if we added Sir Donald Bradman into our side.

The Glenn McGrath-Shane Warne factor is enough to make the Australian bowling lineup as threatening as the West Indies' pace attack.

 

[Ponting_14]

West Indian Invincibles >> Australia.

I mean, even our crappy 2001 team managed to beat the Australian's at their peak.

Just like how your crappy 1983 team managed to beat them twice in the World Cup?

 

[Dare]

The West Indies at their peak wouldn't of beaten India in 2001 either. Their pace bowlers wouldn't of been able to get the ball above stump height on the Indian pitches and would've been murdered by Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dravid and Laxman. They didn't have any quality spinners either. Their batsman would've also been bamboozled by Harbhajan and Kumble as they never got to face quality spin in the 1970s and 1980s, which both decades were dominated by quality pacemen.

Gary Sobers wasn't apart of the great Windies side of the 70s and 80s so adding him in the team is pointless. That would be like if we added Sir Donald Bradman into our side.

The Glenn McGrath-Shane Warne factor is enough to make the Australian bowling lineup as threatening as the West Indies' pace attack.

I can see that you made your point of West Indies bowlers not being successful in India without even looking at their stats in India.

Courtney Walsh 7 matches/13 innings/43 wickets/18.5 average/38.7 SR
And Roberts 7 matches/13 innings/37 wickets/19.8 average/42.8 SR
Malcolm Marshall 9 matches/15 innings/36 wickets/24.6 average/49.8 SR
Michael Holding 6 matches/11 innings/30 wickets/22.1 average/44.7 SR
I cant find Curtlys stats against India in India but I'm sure he was just as good.

Its a sad thing to say but even Lance Gibbs has better stats than Warne in India.

And why wouldn't we include Sobers he played until 74, I'm no scientist but that falls into the 70s if I'm not mistaken.
This just shows me how little you know about the things you are trying to argue against.

 

[Ponting_14]

And why wouldn't we include Sobers he played until 74, I'm no scientist but that falls into the 70s if I'm not mistaken.
This just shows me how little you know about the things you are trying to argue against.

But you said the Windies era started when Lloyd became captain. Which is after Sobers left.

Sobers is not in the team.

 

[Dare]

But you said the Windies era started when Lloyd became captain. Which is after Sobers left.

Sobers is not in the team.

he said that that sobers wasn't a part of the great WI team of the 70s which he was a part of.
The WI undefeated era started in 1980 but they were considered greats before that they were a good batting side in the 60s but they didn't have the bowlers that started arriving in the 70s.

 

[vaibhav mehta]

What I won't admit is that Ponting and Hayden are better than Richards and Greenidge, as I don't believe that's the case. It's my opinion, based on what I've seen, and what I've read.

So true Dan and that is something We always have to accept.Actually it is very tough to compare someone from modern era with Sobers or Richards.They have played laterally before 40 years.
World have changed so much within these 40 years so is the game of cricket.

 

[Ponting_14]

he said that that sobers wasn't a part of the great WI team of the 70s which he was a part of.
The WI undefeated era started in 1980 but they were considered greats before that they were a good batting side in the 60s but they didn't have the bowlers that started arriving in the 70s.

I take it Ben doesn't think the West Indies teams of the early 70's were great. And since they lost a few series at home, I guess he may have a case.

You said yourself the West Indies era of dominance started when Lloyd took over as captain. Which was in the mid 70's. Sobers was gone before that.

 

[Cricketman]

The West Indies at their peak wouldn't of beaten India in 2001 either. Their pace bowlers wouldn't of been able to get the ball above stump height on the Indian pitches and would've been murdered by Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dravid and Laxman. They didn't have any quality spinners either. Their batsman would've also been bamboozled by Harbhajan and Kumble as they never got to face quality spin in the 1970s and 1980s, which both decades were dominated by quality pacemen.

Gary Sobers wasn't apart of the great Windies side of the 70s and 80s so adding him in the team is pointless. That would be like if we added Sir Donald Bradman into our side.

The Glenn McGrath-Shane Warne factor is enough to make the Australian bowling lineup as threatening as the West Indies' pace attack.

Sehwag didn't play back then. And If memory serves me right I don't think Kumble did either. I do remember some guy named Raju, and he was terrible

The McWarne combo I feel wouldn't have been able to match the likes of the West Indian fast bowlers I feel, they were on an entirely different level. From the many biographies and autobiographies i've read, I don't think anyone has mentioned facing a more menacing opponent then the West Indies and their fast bowlers.

The 80's had plenty of quality spinners. India had Chandrashekar, Bedi, and Prasanna, while I believe Abdul Qadir played for Pakistan during that era as well.

Cricketman added 6 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

Just like how your crappy 1983 team managed to beat them twice in the World Cup?

ODIs are not tests.

 

[Dare]

I take it Ben doesn't think the West Indies teams of the early 70's were great. And since they lost a few series at home, I guess he may have a case.

You said yourself the West Indies era of dominance started when Lloyd took over as captain. Which was in the mid 70's. Sobers was gone before that.

West Indies lost 5 test series in the 70s(2 to Australia, 2 to India, 1 to New Zealand), drew 3 and won 7 and that wasn't that bad. They were still one of the most dominant sides when the mid 70s came around.

I said that in my opinion the WI dominance started when Lloyd took over. He took over in 74 and sobers was still there in 74 but I'm not sure If he played any matches under Lloyd as captain.

Even if we leave Sobers out the WI batting lineup matches up with that of the Aussies. The averages that those guys got on the pitches that they played on is amazing.

 

[aussie_ben91]

Pitches weren't flat in the 70s, 80s, 90s, arguement = FALSE
Boundries were allot bigger then the ones today, arguement = FALSE (Australian boundaries are still bigger then any ground in any era)
Bats have always been noticiably bigger in the era, arguement = FALSE (Only since 2004-2005 and both Ricky Ponting and Matthew Hayden averaged well over 50)
Pace Bowling decline arguement = FALSE (Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shaun Pollock, Allan Donald, Courtney Walsh, Shane Bond, Chaminda Vaas, Mahkaya Ntini, Darren Gough, Mohammad Asif, Dale Steyn + spinners: Muttiah Muralidaran, Saqlain Mushtaq, Anil Kumble, Harbhajan Singh, Shahid Afridi, Daniel Vettori)

Matthew Hayden > Gordon Greenidge or Desmond Haynes (How anyone can arguement against this is beyhond me. Hayden looks a far better batsman on footage and has way better statistics)

Glenn McGrath > Malcom Marshall (Considering that the people that think it's easier for batsman nowadays and was harder back then for batsman then logically it was easier for bowlers back then but harder for bowlers nowdays. It's funny because that is their logic but they still think Malcom Marshall is better then Glenn McGrath so ideally, they contradict their reasons that the 70s & 80s batsman are better then the batsman of the modern age.)

 

[Mr.Cricket]

Ive never seen the great windies side play live but I think the Aussies can give them a fair run for their money.

Couple of things we need to consider when we talk about windies 15 year unbeaten streak. They didn't play that much cricket compared to modern day and they didnt have to play that much cricket in Asia. Even the windies would struggle to win on flat Indian tracks these days without a quality spinner.

Anyway in my personal opinion , I think the Aussie team is better becuase of 2 players : Shane Warne and Adam Gilchrist. The best spinner and the best wicket keeping batsmen ever to play the game. Batting wise windies had a great line up but surely the Aussie batting line up with the likes of Hayden, Ponting and Waughs would atleast be par with them (or close 2). Windies definately had the better pace attack but Mcgrath, Dizzy and Lee would go allright in most games.

But Windies never had a spinner like Warney who could single handedly spin a team to victory on day 4 and 5. I know they had a great pace bowlers but Aussies got a more balanced attack that would be deadly in anywhere. Somehow I dont think Windies attack would do better than us in an Indian or Sri Lankan dustbowl.

And then ofcourse Gilly , the X factor. Gilly was the difference between us being a great side and a champion team. I dont need to say much about Gilly becuase well hes just Gilly.