England/general ODI set-up of a side

[Owzat]

This thread isn't intended for people to list who they'd play in ODIs with a view to the World Cup (squad), but instead HOW they'd go about picking the side, the 'make-up' of the side with so many all-rounders, so many bowlers and even which you'd slot in first and how it would impact on how you select the rest.

EDIT : if I/it wasn't clear, I'm also looking at not just WHO you'd pick in terms of player types, but in what order While you might pick such and such a type, an "all-rounder" say, how much the players you have available fit that description/ideal may vary so you might end up having to shift the balance slightly if you don't have a Freddie Flintoff available say.

For example, what I came up with before thinking about this thread.

Two bowlers

I'd start by selecting two bowlers who would probably open the bowling, but who would be picked purely on their bowling ability. This might be Anderson and Onions, it isn't really about who but to show they're not picked for their batting. There's no real need for 10 and 11 to bat much so why pick them with that purpose in mind, is there any sense having a number 10 picked because he can bat if by the time he bats you'd be behind the eight ball?

The only sticking point with this ordered first is someone like Flintoff might fit the bill, but he'd fill the all-round slot later and I wouldn't open with him anyway, at worst someone who can bat would fill the second pair of picks or the final few.

Two bowling all-rounders

Next I'd pick two bowlers who can bat 8 and 9, in this case probably the easiest picks as Swann and Broad readily fit the bill. I'd certainly want the spinner to be able to bat, while I don't feel a Test side necessarily needs a spinner at all depending on conditions, I think the ODI side should have at least one.

Wicket-keeper

I personally believe the keeper has to be able to bat, who it is and where he bats can shape what all-rounders you need. Whether you pick Prior for down the order hitting, or Kieswetter for a cheap wicket opening can be crucial to the shape so that's why I'd pick the keeper next. I'll go with Prior for the sake of picking someone, as I said this is more for the process than for the players

Five batsmen

Next up I'd pick the top order, who depends on where the keeper bats in the side. Another reason for picking the top order batting next is in case someone bowls a bit which opens your options up and may even free up the final bowling slot to be filled by an extra batsman. In this case it would be something like Strauss, Denly (say), Pietersen, Collingwood and Trott.

The all-rounder/rest

With Collingwood in the side you have some bowling, someone who could fill in up to 10 overs, but depending on who the side is would depend who fills in the final spot. Of course the build-up has to lean towards Flintoff filling the role, but if he wasn't available then you'd pick based on the rest, in this working example someone to fill in the gap if not Flintoff could be tricky. England demonstrate this isn't too simple, Collingwood, Pietersen and Wright
used last ODI and Wright doing more this ODI. I feel England need to trust in their main bowlers more, recognise the importance of taking wickets as well as "keeping it tight"



So does anyone else have, or can come up with, an alternative way of selecting? Doesn't have to be England, might be refreshing to apply a selection process to a different team (that doesn't pick itself that is) Having a template seems more logical to me than picking players and not considering how the differing players impact with their designated roles. Sometimes you feel that England just pick players and if Wright say doesn't bowl then never mind. With Collingwood in the side is there much call for Wright, especially batting down the order? Equally with so many players who can bowl, do you feel that bowlers like Broad (in this match) not completing their overs is a waste of resources?

 

[ZoraxDoom]

I'd go about it this way -


Two players to take the new ball -
The best two seam/swing bowlers the country can produce. Batting not needed, fielding helpful. If I go for India, these roles will go to Zak and Praveen Kumar

Two opening batsmen -
To face of the new ball. An ideal combo would be an aggressive batsman and a more sedate one, and right hand/left hand if possible. Luckily for India, we have Sehwag and Sachin.

Wicket-keeper -
The keeper needs to be able to bat, but should be safe enough to keep for 50 overs without any glaring mistakes. India have Dhoni, perfect fit.

The full-quota bowler -
One bowler, fast or spin, who is the best ODI bowler in the country and will usually bowl his 10 overs regardless of conditions and do a good job. Doesn't need to be able to bat or field. Sometimes will over-lap with the new-ball bowler. In India's case, it doesn't, and goes to Harbhajan.

Numbers 3 and 4 -
The 2 batsmen who will do bulk of the run-scoring for the team. Number 3 will need to be able to face the new ball if needed, and is essentially one of the, if no the, best batsman in the team. For India, this goes to Gambhir.
Number 4 should be someone who can bat the fifty overs. Tempted to go with one of Dravid/Badrinath

The batsman who can bowl a bit -
A batsman who can make the team on his batting alone, but should be able to chip in with the ball. Not needed if one of the openers, 3 or 4 can bowl part-time. In that case he can be a pure bat. For India, this goes to Raina

Two Allrounders -
These two should be able to bat in the lower/middle order and contribute valuable runs, act as the fourth and fifth bowlers. Who these two are often decides the balance of the team - whether the bowling attack is pace heavy or spin heavy, or perfectly balanced.
If stuck between a batting AR or a bowling AR, go for the bowling AR.
In India's case, I'd go with Irfan Pathan and Ravidera Jadeja. Pathan cause he'll be the third seamer and is a pretty dangerous batsman, and Jadeja because he's quickly becoming a very good ODI bowler and can bat.

So my India ODI lineup ends up looking like this:

Sehwag
Sachin
Gambhir
Dravid/Badrinath
Raina
Dhoni (+)(*)
Jadeja
Pathan
Praveen Kumar
Bhajji
Zak

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

openers - like zorax said, an accumulator and an attacker. The attacker doesn't need to necessarily be the best batsman in the world, ideally someone with ability to keep or bowl a few overs.

3-4 - best aggressive batsmen in the country. Probably the two from the test squad, in certain circumstances I would go for a slightly younger player who attacked a bit over someone who was more of a test wall. like india do selecting yuvraj over dravid or south africa did until recently, with de villiers instead of amla.

5 - best batting all-rounder, primarily a guy that can bat out the innings if required but also able to bowl. Doesn't matter what type of batsman is here, just that he's good. collingwood or symonds, doesn't matter, but must be able to bowl a decent number of balls.

6 - another batting all-rounder, though this one selected to be almost as good a bowler, the true all-rounder of the team, able to do both to a good standard. Ideally an attacker with the bat though, but again, wouldn't necessarily matter. would take the bulk of balls allocated to the 5th bowler, but not probably not all, allocating 3 or 4 to someone else.

7 - a good level batting-keeper. in the event that the opener can keep, another just like number 6, though picked primarily on ability to attack, also might make me more inclined to pick 6 on ability with the bat rather than balance and take the bulk of the 5th bowler overs, sharing with the 6 instead.

8- bowling all-rounder, someone that is going to bowl 10 overs but will also contribute with the bat.

9 - 11 would depend very much on the abilities of the other players with the ball, but two accurate seamers to take the new ball, ideally one with raw pace to bowl at the death as well, and one with a lot of control (the bracken like bowler) also the best ODI spinner in the country (or if the all-rounders are all spinners a pacer, might be tempted to pick one with a bit of batting ability)

 

[King Pietersen]

I'll start from the top with the openers, and I'd go for the skipper Strauss alongside the keeper batsman Kieswetter. Should Kieswetter fail consistently, then I'd bring Davies in.

The middle order would include a range of players offering different characteristics. Pietersen offers the flamboyant attacking strokeplay, Collingwood with his grit and detirmination, the talent and run-making abilities of Jonathan Trott and the finisher in Eoin Morgan.

Then at 7 would come the all-rounder. At full strength that all-rounder would be Flintoff, but at the moment I'd probably go with Luke Wright. He might not be the most talented cricketer in the world, but he does his job and does it well.

As for the bowlers, outside the subcontinent it's a matter of picking 3 seamers, which at full strength I'd go for Anderson, Broad and Napier, but in the subcontinent you have to pick 2 spinners, and they'd have to be Swann and one of Rashid or Tredwell. I don't think Bresnan or Onions should play. Onions looks a better international bowler than Bresnan, but he's not done enough domestically to warrant an ODi call-up.

With a full strength bowling attack available I think we look a good side, it's just the back-ups that are a problem. An attack of Anderson, Broad, Flintoff, Napier and Swann looks very promising though I think, and a batting line-up of Strauss, Kieswetter, Pietersen, Collingwood, Trott, Morgan and Flintoff looks very strong too.

 

[War]

I'll start from the top with the openers, and I'd go for the skipper Strauss alongside the keeper batsman Kieswetter. Should Kieswetter fail consistently, then I'd bring Davies in.

The middle order would include a range of players offering different characteristics. Pietersen offers the flamboyant attacking strokeplay, Collingwood with his grit and detirmination, the talent and run-making abilities of Jonathan Trott and the finisher in Eoin Morgan.

Then at 7 would come the all-rounder. At full strength that all-rounder would be Flintoff, but at the moment I'd probably go with Luke Wright. He might not be the most talented cricketer in the world, but he does his job and does it well.

As for the bowlers, outside the subcontinent it's a matter of picking 3 seamers, which at full strength I'd go for Anderson, Broad and Napier, but in the subcontinent you have to pick 2 spinners, and they'd have to be Swann and one of Rashid or Tredwell. I don't think Bresnan or Onions should play. Onions looks a better international bowler than Bresnan, but he's not done enough domestically to warrant an ODi call-up.

With a full strength bowling attack available I think we look a good side, it's just the back-ups that are a problem. An attack of Anderson, Broad, Flintoff, Napier and Swann looks very promising though I think, and a batting line-up of Strauss, Kieswetter, Pietersen, Collingwood, Trott, Morgan and Flintoff looks very strong too.

Prior is ahead of him still. But otherwise your on point.

 

[King Pietersen]

He shouldn't be, he's a terrible OD batsman. The only reason he's continually getting picked is because he's scoring runs at a fairly decent rate in Test cricket. He's done nothing in ODi cricket to warrant the amount of chances he's been given. He's not even world class with the gloves.

 

[drainpipe32]

Get Kieswetter into the ODI team, and gradually phase him into the test line-up.

 

[War]

He shouldn't be, he's a terrible OD batsman. The only reason he's continually getting picked is because he's scoring runs at a fairly decent rate in Test cricket. He's done nothing in ODi cricket to warrant the amount of chances he's been given. He's not even world class with the gloves.

I believe too many English fans have unfairly criticised Prior's ODI record. Thats not to say we shouldn't be critical of him, but its not 100% accurate.

Firstly ok we all know he was a failure as an ODI opeer between SA 04/05 to IND 08/09. But at the same time its was selectors usual indiotic ODI selection policies that mad ehim open in the first place. Since after the 2007 WC any erduite English fan who was watching county cricket would have said "Prior would be a failure as an ODI opener" & thats what happened.

Since WI 09 since he has been battinh @#6/7 like where he bats in trst he is beginning to look like a better ODI batsmen. So even with Flintoff back i reckon both Prior & Kiewswetter could play in the same team.

 

[King Pietersen]

Just checked the stats, and when batting in positions 4-7 he still has a poor record, averaging 29.10 with a strike rate of 73.29, and that average is boosted thanks to averaging 72 against Bangladesh, most of those runs coming after being fortunately given not out to 2 plumb lbw appeals. I'm still convinced that giving Kieswetter the gloves and having Trott in the middle order would be a far better option. If we want to pick a pure wicket-keeper in ODi's, then at least pick the best gloveman in the country, James Foster, at least he's scoring runs domestically (412 List A runs at 82.40 last season).

 

[War]

Just checked the stats, and when batting in positions 4-7 he still has a poor record, averaging 29.10 with a strike rate of 73.29, and that average is boosted thanks to averaging 72 against Bangladesh, most of those runs coming after being fortunately given not out to 2 plumb lbw appeals. I'm still convinced that giving Kieswetter the gloves and having Trott in the middle order would be a far better option. If we want to pick a pure wicket-keeper in ODi's, then at least pick the best gloveman in the country, James Foster, at least he's scoring runs domestically (412 List A runs at 82.40 last season).

You dont need to look at runs he had @ 4 & 5. He is not an opener nor a middle-order batsmen - batting him there was selectorial erros. Just look at his runs in ODIs when he has batted @ 6/7 which is where he is good at. He has only being given that chance since the Windies tour in 09 to bat in ODIs in his test match position & he has averaged 31:

- # 6

- # 7

Of course not 50s yet, but just watching him bat in the last year in his more accustomed role. He certainly has not looked woeful - but rather he has looked like he could be a useful late order finisher in few of those cameo innings he has played in the last year. Its a harsh & doube-standardish to be critical of Prior during his last innings vs Bangladesh for not being given out in his 42, when Morgan was also out too early. Prior's innings was key part in ENG win.

But at the same time Prior getting a chance down the order may have indeed come too late, since they are better options than him for the best ODI XI:

Strauss
Kieswetter
Trott
KP
Colly
Morgan
Flintoff
Mascarenhas/Bresnan
Swann
Broad
Anderson

Kieswetter should get the gloves for sure now.

On Foster i don't think he would be much different from Prior in ODIs. Yea is the clear better glovesman, but with the bat he is a accumilator as we saw in the T20 WC, he didn't translate his domestic hitting & SR to the international stage. Given he would likely bat @ 7/8 thats batting style aint good enough for that position unfortunately.

 

[Adarsh]

Zorax, no Yuvraj in your side ! Are you kidding me ?!

 

[ZoraxDoom]

ADARSH LIVES!!!


And to answer your question, left him out for the time being on account of poor form/injury/being fat/forgetting him completely. He'll basically take Raina's spot, batsman who can bowl a few overs.

 

[sifter132]

I think the best general setup of an ODI side is this:
5 batsmen - at least one who must be able to bowl as he'll be the 6th option eg. Collingwood
1 keeper - mainly known for his batting, but obviously must be competent with gloves. Any regular keeper usually is
3 specialist bowlers - 2 quicks and 1 spin. I like having a 'real' spinner in a side. Or 3 quicks if your #8 is a spinner eg. NZ with Vettori.
2 all-rounders - one a bowling all-rounder to bat at #8 eg. Stuart Broad/Mitch Johnson/Dan Vettori types. But then again a Darren Sammy or Rana Naved can be a passable #8 as well, he doesn't have to be a renowned batsman. And the other more balanced allrounder to bat at #7 or higher eg. Luke Wright/James Hopes/Shane Watson/Andrew Flintoff. Sometimes you'll want the 2nd all-rounder to be more batting oriented - depends on your keepers ability with the bat.

I think your original designations owzat you have only 2 specialist bowlers and 3 all-rounders. I like another specialist. Of course for England your specialist in Swann is really a bowling all-rounder anyway...

Basically I think the important thing for any ODI side is versatility: having 5 guys who you can rely on for 10 overs and another one or 2 who can bowl 5 or more handy overs to give you options if things go wrong. And you want good batting down to #7. #8 must also be decent too but he's a bowler first and foremost - so he must be a good bowler! From #9 onwards if you are picking them for their batting you are not thinking straight.

 

[CG123]

The set-up of my side would be:

Four Specialist Batsmen (1 - 5)
One Batting All-Rounder (Somewhere in the top five, plus bowl around 5 overs)
One Wicket-Keeper (Normally 6/7, needs to be able to bat)
One Genuine All-Rounder (Someone who can bat 6/7, plus bowl 8 - 10 overs)
One Bowling All-Rounder (Normally a hitter who can bat number eight)
Three Specialist Bowlers (Tail ender's, who are all 10 over bowler)

Batting wise, lots of depth with a bowling all-rounder down at eight.
Bowling wise, lots of options, need a mixture of left/right and spin/pace.

Going by what I have said, examples are just random:

1. (BAT) - Smith, Tendulkar
2. (BAT AR) - Gayle, Ryder, Sehwag
3. (BAT) - Gambhir, Ponting
4. (BAT) - Taylor, Yousuf, Clarke
5. (BAT) - Hussey, Singh
6. (AR) - Flintoff, Oram, Bravo
7. (WK) - Dhoni, Boucher
8. (BWL AR) - Vettori, Johnson
9. (BWL) - Hauritz, Singh
10. (BWL) - Khan, Mills
11. (BWL) - Bond, Steyn

Ways to mix it up:

* Have a wicket-keeper opening (McCullum, Haddin), meaning you can play another AR at seven (Afridi, Hopes)
* Have another batting all-rounder in your top five (Collingwood, Elliot)

 

[shirazu]

The lineup depends on the pitch conditions. The worse it is for batting the more you need to pack your side with additional all-rounders, because you need the extra batting as guys are going to get out. But for the average india game, played on super flat pitches, you don't need an all-rounder. When was the last time you saw india 5 down before the slog overs on a typical indian pitch? Ok, it happens sometimes.

Much has been made of the poor death bowling of the indian team. From what I have seen most india games go the same way. The new ball bowlers come out, and one of the two guys picked is always terrible since zaheer is the only good fast bowler india has, and the opposition ends up 50 for 0 or 1 after ten overs. Then they bring on the first change bowler who is even worse, and harbhajan, who is actually decent. Inevitably one of the regular bowlers gets smacked around for 10 an over and so Harbhajan and the part timers then bowl the next 25 overs until the end, usually with fields packed around the boundary such that there is very little chance of taking a catch, and on flat pitches as well. So the opposition never ends up losing wickets, and of course India's death bowlers then come on and get slogged by teams with wickets in hand.