India's debacle in overseas Tests against top teams

[SaiSrini]

The coach is a major influence in the way the team goes about things. The coach is involved with the captain in strategic planning for each game/series/tour, he gets involved in motivating the players, pointing out their flaws, lifting them up, etc. The coach's role is very important, and Fletcher seems to be highly inept and also doesnt strike a chemistry with Dhoni, which is so important. I wish Stephen Fleming was picked as coach. He has a great relationship with Dhoni while coaching Chennai Super Kings in the IPL. The captain-coach chemistry is vital to the team.

This is a team that not so long ago were looking to erase their overseas blot of winning series. They had improved their overseas record considerably. Enter Fletcher, and its all back to square one. What does that mean?

 

[Gaurav_7]

Yeah, alright. But, blaming the coach isn't the way to go like Varun was directly/indirectly doing that. I am sure it isn't the primary influence. Might not even be the influence at all actually. I mean players are professional enough to get going when the country comes into play. Nowadays, it just doesn't seem to be the case.

Batsmen don't seem to fight it out when conditions don't favor them. Body language drops when a partnership gets going for the opposition. Bowlers look like they have been doing labor work for the whole day. Whereas the opposition batters pile on the runs, bowlers come running in. It surely can't be the coach. Players are actually to be blamed. Organizers as well for the over kill.

 

[shravi]

I also wonder whether the West Indies series was really necessary before the Australian tour. Sure, we still got 2 practice matches in but the players were not properly rested. While they have been thoroughly outplayed on the skill front and I will be the first to admit that, perhaps they are being worked too hard. Many of these players play all three formats, including the IPL.

 

[Gaurav_7]

This is a team that not so long ago were looking to erase their overseas blot of winning series. They had improved their overseas record considerably. Enter Fletcher, and its all back to square one. What does that mean?

Players got to be up for it, you know. Coach can do every other thing he wants to but, cannot step in the field and play. It is the players. And, what do you think coaches would tell batsmen like Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman at this stage?

 

[SaiSrini]

I also wonder whether the West Indies series was really necessary before the Australian tour. Sure, we still got 2 practice matches in but the players were not properly rested. While they have been thoroughly outplayed on the skill front and I will be the first to admit that, perhaps they are being worked too hard. Many of these players play all three formats, including the IPL.

With Indian cricket, you take it for granted that you wont get enough rest, you wont get enough preparation, etc. You got to make do with whatever you get. Thats how it goes. Try telling to those money minded BCCI hooligans about rest and preparation, and they will say "we are not forcing any player to play. If they want rest, they are welcome to ask". And only Sachin and Dhoni in our team can actually stand up and ask to be rested (because their places are so strong that no one can take it away from them). Others fear the BCCI will throw them out if the replacement does well.

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Players got to be up for it, you know. Coach can do every other thing he wants to but, cannot step in the field and play. It is the players. And, what do you think coaches would tell batsmen like Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman at this stage?

Its about the team atmosphere, how the coach and his staff manage the environment, how good the coach is with his interpersonal relationships, etc. Why do you think people so animatedly discuss about changes in the coaching staff whenever it happens? Its because these guys can influence the environment which decides how a team performs.

 

[Gaurav_7]

That influence is minimal, I personally think that. Players at this level should know how to carry themselves. They surely don't need an outsider to maintain an environment, do they?

 

[puddleduck]

If the coach isn't that important, why did Andy Flower just win 'coach of the year' in England?

 

[Gaurav_7]

Because England did well? Players performed to their potential and the results favored the team?

 

[SaiSrini]

Because England did well? Players performed to their potential and the results favored the team?

Yes they did well. But they were created that environment where they had the best possible chance to do well. The coach and his staff take care of that. You are grossly underplaying the influence of the environment and the impact of the coach and captain's soft skills. Studying about management and leadership right now, I can very well vouch that its an important part.

 

[puddleduck]

Because England did well? Players performed to their potential and the results favored the team?

Which brings me to a question I asked in the India thread.

Is Dhoni expected to perform the video analyses, create the plans, and work out how to deal with the opposition bowlers all himself?

Or is there a well paid team of professionals that are supposed to create the environment in which a captain can work from?

Does a good coach need a good captain? Does a good captain need a good coach? Or do the need each other?

 

[Gaurav_7]

Well, as I said nothing much a coach can do if players look like they aren't bothered. Coach can do all his stuff but, it is the players who have to perform well. I'm not a fan of analysis, to be honest. Cricket, for me, is something more than all that. It is how you go about it on the given day!

 

[puddleduck]

That said, in 2005, it was obvious that some serious research allowed England to exploit the previously unstoppable Gilchrist by creating a plan and sticking to it. The same was true of Hayden in the first couple of tests.

I think in the modern era, a lot goes into making an international team successful, and I think the coach is as important as anyone else in the setup. Though I fully agree that against both England in the test series, and again here today, there has been an all too worrying lack of effort and desire when things aren't going well.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

nah, the coach is important. andy flower has turned england from a rabble to the most balanced and complete team, look back at peter moores era and their current form was unthinkable.

ponting always gave a lot of credit to john buchanan as well and most people are aware gary kirsten was very popular with the indian team and they've gone from no.1s and WC winners to extra-ordinarily dodgey in a matter of months. complete contrast to the chappell days, and with the same players. sri lanka too are reeling a bit from coaches of decreasing ability.

there are other factors, aus losing mcgrath and warne, india's aging line up, englands young pace bowlers. but perhaps under a different coach englands pace bowlers would have been mismanaged and ineffective. the coach is important.

 

[sifter132]

I also wonder whether the West Indies series was really necessary before the Australian tour. Sure, we still got 2 practice matches in but the players were not properly rested. While they have been thoroughly outplayed on the skill front and I will be the first to admit that, perhaps they are being worked too hard. Many of these players play all three formats, including the IPL.

Yet there are many people who are saying India should have had another warm up game, preferably on one of the grounds that was going to used in the series eg. Perth.

I guess if they come good this innings or next test, they needed another warm up match, if they suck all the way through like England it's something else...like fatigue, or coach change. Perish the thought that it's the players faults themselves. eg. it's been almost 3 years since any Indian batsman bar Dravid and SRT have made centuries outside Asia (G.Gambhir, April 2009 vs NZ in Wellington)

I don't mean to pick on you specifically shravi but the most common excuse when teams play badly for 2 or more matches in a row seems to be fatigue eg. England in every World Cup I really can't see that as an excuse these days given that everyone plays approximately the same number of matches and that the schedules are generally known well in advance. So if it is fatigue, then it's down to poor player management, not the schedule makers.

Will agree with you about the hunger in the team though. India played just as badly at Centurion in 2010 as they did at Edgbaston or here at Sydney, but Kirsten got them bouncing back in that SA series. If Fletcher can't, then there needs to be some questions asked.

 

[cricket_icon]

Even in recent years, including the run which lead to India becoming world number ones, India haven't been exceptionally successful over seas:


India in South Africa Test Series 2006/07 South Africa 2-1 (3)
India in Bangladesh Test Series 2007 India 1-0 (2)
Pataudi Trophy (India in England) 2007 India 1-0 (3)
Pakistan in India Test Series 2007/08 India 1-0 (3)
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia) 2007/08 Australia 2-1 (4)
South Africa in India Test Series 2007/08 drawn 1-1 (3)
India in Sri Lanka Test Series 2008 Sri Lanka 2-1 (3)
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India) 2008/09 India 2-0 (4)
Pataudi Trophy (England in India) 2008/09 India 1-0 (2)
India in New Zealand Test Series 2008/09 India 1-0 (3)
Sri Lanka in India Test Series 2009/10 India 2-0 (3)
India in Bangladesh Test Series 2009/10 India 2-0 (2)
South Africa in India Test Series 2009/10 drawn 1-1 (2)
India in Sri Lanka Test Series 2010 drawn 1-1 (3)
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India) 2010/11 India 2-0 (2)
New Zealand in India Test Series 2010/11 India 1-0 (3)
India in South Africa Test Series 2010/11 drawn 1-1 (3)
India in West Indies Test Series 2011 India 1-0 (3)
Pataudi Trophy (India in England) 2011 England 4-0 (4)

As you can see, the vast majority of test series' they have won "away" have either been in the subcontinent or the WI...all teams you would expect India to beat. Against England, SA and Australia they don't register a single overseas win. So the inclusion of D Fletcher isn't that big an issue.