Philander: 100 and counting

[hawkeye]

Philander has had a dream start to his career. Many wonder how he has managed to do so well without having a lot of pace. Will his good performances last?

Nine five-wicket hauls in just 19 games tells the story of a bowler with a large capacity for dismembering batting units, quelling the doubts of those who considered his pace too gentle and the movement he elicited too slight for him to succeed the highest level. For years he plugged away in first-class cricket, racking up impressive numbers, but denied promotion to Tests, most likely due to a stereotype that looks askance at fast bowlers incapable of blinding pace.

Vernon Philander

 

[cricket_icon]

Philly is a good bowler, very good maybe but he has feasted at home far too often, only 43 of the 102 wickets come away from home and a large chunk of these in NZ against one of the poorer sides in test cricket. He looked ordinary in Australia, for the most part and the same in England. He looked like a containing, defensive bowler in Dubai.

His SR jumps up by 11 outside of South Africa, if you take out NZ that jumps up even further.

I'm not bashing Philly, he is a handful in SA but not quite the international cricketer one would hope for, especially when you take away bowler friendly countries.

Maybe I'm just being picky lol

 

[War]

Another example of cricket ranking systems doing crap. No bowler is better than Steyn in the game - everyone knows this.

 

[vaibhavtewatia]

Another example of cricket ranking systems doing crap. No bowler is better than Steyn in the game - everyone knows this.

True that. No bowler is better than Steyn. But at the same time if ICC ranks Philander above him only because of what he's done in past 2 years or so right? Maybe, just better than Steyn?

Philander's performances in recent years just tip him above and at the top of the table. Although, I agree completely with @cricket_icon here on the evaluation, taking him out of South Africa makes him as ordinary as any Indian bowler.

 

[War]

True that. No bowler is better than Steyn. But at the same time if ICC ranks Philander above him only because of what he's done in past 2 years or so right? Maybe, just better than Steyn?

Philander's performances in recent years just tip him above and at the top of the table. Although, I agree completely with @cricket_icon here on the evaluation, taking him out of South Africa makes him as ordinary as any Indian bowler.

What formula or performances have Philander done in the last 2 years that the ICC rankings could have deduced that made him better than Steyn?.

As you said yourself - despite Philander bowling very well in recent years he has yet to produce a dominant spell of bowling across the subcontinent - the acid test for all quicks & Steyn has done this. Certainly in the last two years, Philander didn't do this.

All ranking systems for teams & players in cricket are useless.

 

[hawkeye]

It should be noted that Steyn and Philander have more or less bowled on the same surfaces for the past two years.

 

[harishankar]

I think it's a bit like Ashwin's record. Ashwin has had a similar start to his career, but then he's bowled most of his overs in India on turning tracks.

I think all bowlers need to be given enough opportunities both at home and overseas before they're judged.

From what I've seen Philander looks non-threatening unless the pitch offers seam movement. He hasn't the express pace of Steyn or the awkward bounce (due to height) of Morkel to make batsmen uncomfortable.

 

[cricket_icon]

Another example of cricket ranking systems doing crap. No bowler is better than Steyn in the game - everyone knows this.

A certain Saeed Ajmal may disagree

 

[War]

It should be noted that Steyn and Philander have more or less bowled on the same surfaces for the past two years.

Yes, however but how can the last two years of performances in which Philander has not conquered all conditions in the world - propel him ahead of Steyn bowling since he peaked in 2006, in which he conquered the world & is not pretty much a all-time great fast bowler?

----------

A certain Saeed Ajmal may disagree

While Ajmal is clearly the best spinner in the world, now that Swann has retired & his action being a bone of contention of some - I can't see how Ajmal's danger/potency as spinner to world batsman, is more lethal than Steyn.

 

[cricket_icon]

Yes, however but how can the last two years of performances in which Philander has not conquered all conditions in the world - propel him ahead of Steyn bowling since he peaked in 2006, in which he conquered the world & is not pretty much a all-time great fast bowler?

----------



While Ajmal is clearly the best spinner in the world, now that Swann has retired & his action being a bone of contention of some - I can't see how Ajmal's danger/potency as spinner to world batsman, is more lethal than Steyn.

Why not? And first of all, let's get over the action, he has been tested enough. Let us not mar his career with such imbecilic accusations, as we did with Murali for most of his career, and by we I mean the worlds white teams. Not being racial but it's just the way it is. Many non-Asian, in fact all non-Asian spinners can not bowl the doosra or not as well, and they start blaming actions etc.

Now onto the real crux of the argument, is Ajmal more lethal than Steyn? On some pitches most definitely, on other pitches he is about par. Steyn is the fast, aggressive pace bowler, Ajmal the tweeker but his magic is such that entire teams, ranging from South Africa to England to India have meetings on how to play him. His test average of 26 is one of the very best amongst all time spinners, especially considering that he has spent much of his career playing away from home. That's a rarity in any sport.

 

[War]

Why not? And first of all, let's get over the action, he has been tested enough. Let us not mar his career with such imbecilic accusations, as we did with Murali for most of his career, and by we I mean the worlds white teams. Not being racial but it's just the way it is. Many non-Asian, in fact all non-Asian spinners can not bowl the doosra or not as well, and they start blaming actions etc.

The recent banning of Shillingford shows the doosra argument is not a "white countries" thing - it is more a legitimacy issue of the doosra as i mentioned in this thread - http://www.planetcricket.org/forums/cricket-discussion/shane-shillingford-suspension-state-off-spin-bowling-87179.html

More people in world cricket believe the doosra is ball that can't be bowl legitimately & Shillingford ban has opened a very "grey" area in cricket treating/dealing of bowlers who bowl to doosra - thats need urgent review.

Despite the success Ajmal is having, if they are banning Shillingford for bowling his doosra & general action i question their results. Thus i'm in the camp that believes the Until the technology develops to the extent that we can determine in real time if a player is bowling legally or not the current system, of a player being reported to the ICC and going through their review process, is questionable. The process needs to be transparent, and the science behind it needs to be better understood, and better explained to the wider cricket public.

Now onto the real crux of the argument, is Ajmal more lethal than Steyn? On some pitches most definitely, on other pitches he is about par. Steyn is the fast, aggressive pace bowler, Ajmal the tweeker but his magic is such that entire teams, ranging from South Africa to England to India have meetings on how to play him. His test average of 26 is one of the very best amongst all time spinners, especially considering that he has spent much of his career playing away from home. That's a rarity in any sport.

Not doubting or questioning any of these achievements. Just that Steyn has also conquered the globe as a fast bowler.

Like the situation was at the start of the 2000s when McGrath was the undisputed # 1 quick and Warne/Murali (depending on stats, or unfortunately country bias) was the # 1 spinner. I think the best middle ground to be drawn is Steyn is the best fast bowler & Ajmal best spinner

 

[cricket_icon]

The recent banning of Shillingford shows the doosra argument is not a "white countries" thing - it is more a legitimacy issue of the doosra as i mentioned in this thread - http://www.planetcricket.org/forums/cricket-discussion/shane-shillingford-suspension-state-off-spin-bowling-87179.html

More people in world cricket believe the doosra is ball that can't be bowl legitimately & Shillingford ban has opened a very "grey" area in cricket treating/dealing of bowlers who bowl to doosra - thats need urgent review.

Despite the success Ajmal is having, if they are banning Shillingford for bowling his doosra & general action i question their results. Thus i'm in the camp that believes the Until the technology develops to the extent that we can determine in real time if a player is bowling legally or not the current system, of a player being reported to the ICC and going through their review process, is questionable. The process needs to be transparent, and the science behind it needs to be better understood, and better explained to the wider cricket public.





Not doubting or questioning any of these achievements. Just that Steyn has also conquered the globe as a fast bowler.

Like the situation was at the start of the 2000s when McGrath was the undisputed # 1 quick and Warne/Murali (depending on stats, or unfortunately country bias) was the # 1 spinner. I think the best middle ground to be drawn is Steyn is the best fast bowler & Ajmal best spinner

Shillingford banned from bowling the doosra is to do with him, as an individual, who does something illegal under the rules of the game to bowl that delivery. Ajmal, tested multiple times before, does not bend his arm in such a way, that it is illegal, when bowling the doosra. The same technology that holds Shillingford as having sinned, is the same that has allowed Ajmal to ball the doosra, because he does it legally. You can't say the tech is not right when you use it to bad one man and then to pardon another. That stinks of hypocrisy.

And just to add, the vast majority of voices saying the doosra can ONLY be bowled via an illegal action are commentators of the game from England and Australia and some times South Africa and very rarely the Windies. It's the same story as with reverse swing, till England got a hold of it in 2005 (our bowlers having learnt from Younis and Akram..oh the irony), it was deemed as some thing dark, illegal, deceitful. I think it will be the same now, the moment an Aussie or an Englishman starts bowling the doosra, we'll start calling it an art and the action will no longer be questioned. That's fact, not opinion.

And I agree with u on the last part, I actually have Steyn as the best bowler in tests in 2013 but it's not a foregone conclusion. I think the two are neck and neck and probably head and shoulders above anyone else in world cricket, considering all conditions and formats. Both deserved to be applauded, Ajmal for his ingenuity and variety of deliveries, Steyn for his pace, accuracy, discipline and yes, reverse swing as the ball gets older.