Sir Garfield Sobers's bowling ability - Opinions vs Stats

[Aislabie]

I still think Aubrey Faulkner is criminally overlooked in the greatest all-rounder conversation

 

[blockerdave]

I still think Aubrey Faulkner is criminally overlooked in the greatest all-rounder conversation

and his stats (40/26) would absolutely agree!

 

[Aislabie]

The other ones who are annoyingly overlooked are Charlie Macartney and Keith Miller. Charlie Kelleway would be sort of the great all-rounder if you're on a budget. Warwick Armstrong and Monty Noble both had the first-class pedigree to join that club, but their Test stats in one discipline or the other let them down a bit.

Of course other countries had great all-rounders too, but Australia just had an absolute production line of them back then

 

[CerealKiller]

The other ones who are annoyingly overlooked are Charlie Macartney and Keith Miller. Charlie Kelleway would be sort of the great all-rounder if you're on a budget. Warwick Armstrong and Monty Noble both had the first-class pedigree to join that club, but their Test stats in one discipline or the other let them down a bit.

Of course other countries had great all-rounders too, but Australia just had an absolute production line of them back then

Recency bias at work. Only Bradman has the stats to overcome it.

 

[Kenway]

yes, but his averages - 55/32 are more or less interchangeable with Sobers - 57/34

In the era of the 70s/80s, to be genuinely worth your place as a specialist, you'd need to average 35+ with the bat (40+ being the benchmark of world class), and <30 with the ball (<25 being the world class benchmark).

Imran is the only one who manages that.

One can argue that any all-rounder has compromises cuz of their workload - Kallis was a good enough bowler that if he had been a crap batsman and only bowled, he'd likely have had a far better average. Probably the same with all the others. (Or vice versa, if they'd been pure batsmen they may have scored more heavily.) But that's all a bit speculative: Imran is the only one who actually posted the numbers.

Imran only became an All Rounder in the Final Half of his career. The last 10 years. His batting was improved by a gigantic margin. He was coming in to bat in the Top Order (mostly due to the weak batting lineup) and Imran was also batting like a specialist hard hitter, with great technique. He averaged almost 50 with the bat in the final 10 years of his career. That's almost as freakish as Ian Botham's PEAK ( the first 11 years of his career)



But "numbers" don't tell the full story. People who never watched the game back then, and doesn't have enough knowledge.. can't know any better.

Imran was NEVER an All Rounder in the First Half of his career. He was a specialist bowler. Arguably, the best pace bowler at that time.


But his game and mentality completely changed in the Final 10 years. So he was an outrageous All Rounder for only half of his career.

 

[blockerdave]

Imran only became an All Rounder in the Final Half of his career. The last 10 years. His batting was improved by a gigantic margin. He was coming in to bat in the Top Order (mostly due to the weak batting lineup) and Imran was also batting like a specialist hard hitter, with great technique. He averaged almost 50 with the bat in the final 10 years of his career. That's almost as freakish as Ian Botham's PEAK ( the first 11 years of his career)



But "numbers" don't tell the full story. People who never watched the game back then, and doesn't have enough knowledge.. can't know any better.

Imran was NEVER an All Rounder in the First Half of his career. He was a specialist bowler. Arguably, the best pace bowler at that time.


But his game and mentality completely changed in the Final 10 years. So he was an outrageous All Rounder for only half of his career.

thanks, I didn’t know that

 

[Jack7]

He's clearly massively overrated as a bowler. That can't be hidden from if you are a big fan of cricket. A great batsman though that's for sure.

 

[RJ Sports Therapies]

I can't believe what I am reading? Has Kallis bowl top level spin in a Test match against top opposition? Forget about whether it would be finger or wrist spin...........what's wrong with people. The qualitative assessment of Soberswith regards to him bowl 3 styles has to be put into context with alongside his average. How many bowlers in Test history have bowled more than one style ? I feel this give has been sidelined with the focus being shifted towards his average. If this skill would be deemed to overrated - can someone please tell me which bowlers in The history of test cricket consistently bowled in more than one style throughout their careers?

 

[Bevab]

Kallis is overrated as a bowler anyway in tests.

 

[RJ Sports Therapies]

Like many, I too rate Sir Garfield Sobers as the greatest cricketer to have ever lived. Let's face it, he is widely regarded as the greatest ever all rounder.

The point I'm about to raise is his bowling ability. Here's a paragraph from Wikipedia (Sir Garfield Sobers's page) -




Let's look at Sobers's career bowling figures -

235 wickets @ 34.03, SR 91.9


It's true that stats don't give us the complete picture. It's quite true that someone like Viv Richards with an average lower than all of his contemporaries of his era is still considered far better than each one of them. It's also true that despite there being a huge gap in the average between Tendulkar and Lara all throughout their careers, the latter was always considered in the same league as Sachin.

But having said that, how can a player with a very mediocre bowling average of 34.03 and a pathetic strike rate of 91.9 be considered as 'a bowler of extraordinary skill'? It's just irrational.

What's the opinion of the rest of you guys on the issue?

From my recollection - Kallis, Imran, Kapil, Botham, and Hadlee ONLY bowled pace. For WI Bernard Julien bowled Pace & Spin left arm, and so did Richard Austin ( Right Arm). In any case neither player bowl both forms consistently for any period of time. Neither one player more than 50 tests or took 100 test wickets. No other Test cricketer played more than 50 test matches playing for any nation bowl more than 2 styles. Saqlain Mustaq, Harbajan Singh and Murli developed the doosra along with Moeen Ali and Ahmjad. As finger spinners they were able added an extra dimension to their game. None of those players managed to add pace bbowling to this and then go on to perform in a Test Match at anytime in their careers. In this discussion - I wonder if anyone has seriously thought about the question being asked or if they had actually played cricket themselves.....it takes alot to develop into a high class spin bowler or seam bowler. Being able to do BOTH at Test level and take wickets is not only difficult.....its remarkable!!!! I am puzzled as to why people keep on saying "well kallis has a better average.......sobers economy rate was no good........kallis took his wickets at a better rate........can I ask if anyone in this chat can both bowl pace and spin at CLUB level.....forget first class or Test.....???

 

[RJ Sports Therapies]

As a bowler alone he might not be all that great, but considering that he averaged that much with the bat, averaging 34 with the ball is quite an accomplishment. Also, his bowling really came along as his career progressed.

OMG......the man bowl 3 different styles????? What else is he supposed to do??? Summons God from the heavens????

 

[RJ Sports Therapies]

Like many, I too rate Sir Garfield Sobers as the greatest cricketer to have ever lived. Let's face it, he is widely regarded as the greatest ever all rounder.

The point I'm about to raise is his bowling ability. Here's a paragraph from Wikipedia (Sir Garfield Sobers's page) -




Let's look at Sobers's career bowling figures -

235 wickets @ 34.03, SR 91.9


It's true that stats don't give us the complete picture. It's quite true that someone like Viv Richards with an average lower than all of his contemporaries of his era is still considered far better than each one of them. It's also true that despite there being a huge gap in the average between Tendulkar and Lara all throughout their careers, the latter was always considered in the same league as Sachin.

But having said that, how can a player with a very mediocre bowling average of 34.03 and a pathetic strike rate of 91.9 be considered as 'a bowler of extraordinary skill'? It's just irrational.

What's the opinion of the rest of you guys on the issue?

How is it irrational when the man bowl more than one style....at Test level??

 

[RJ Sports Therapies]

Never seen him bowl, so could be wrong, but my guess is that he played a lot as a stock bowler or supporting act to the main strike bowlers of the team, so focused more on keeping runs down and maintaining pressure over taking wickets.

Second thought is that he could have been highly respected by all the batsmen, and so treated with that much caution. The most skilful bowlers aren't always the best at getting batsmen out, so that could be the case here. Very good bowler, but couldn't out-think a batsman?

It's quite clear looking at Test match records that he alternated his role and was used alot as a stock slow left arm bowler to support Gibbs. In first class cricket he would be given more of am attacking role.....but he wouldn't have got the new ball as often as he would have liked in the mid 60's with Hall and Griffith. The ball would have to be swinging alot for this to happen.....so there is no way he would have got so many wickets.

 

[Archer6K]

From 9th March 1960 to 30 December 1968 Sobers took 137 wickets in 68 innings, averaging 29.04 and he had the workload of a bowler.