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Unofficial "you are the umpire" thread?

Discussion in 'Cricket Discussion' started by qpeedore, Apr 7, 2014.

  1. qpeedore SOTM Winner - July 2014

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    To begin with, this thread is inspired by the excellent series and book by Paul Trevillion (also of "you are the ref" fame) and John Holder. I highly recommend purchasing it. My own copy is about to fall apart from the amount of times I've read it cover to cover.

    But it got me thinking recently...there is no need for the questions to stop, now is there? Why can't we on PlanetCricket have our own unofficial "you are the umpire" thread, inspired from the book? The football series continues, why can't we continue the cricket version, albeit unofficially?

    In no way is it intended to infringe on the copyright, and if I'm doing something wrong, the mods can feel free to delete my thread. With a courteous PM to me also, of course. I just think it can spur some healthy discussion, and perhaps we can all learn more about the game we love.

    I, for one, understood so much more after reading the book. And there I was, thinking I knew all about the game.

    So basically, the idea...think up the strangest scenarios that can possibly and realistically happen in a game of cricket, from schoolyard to international level. The only stipulation is that the game must be played according to the Laws. Submit your scenarios here, and the PlanetCricket members will have their go at solving them. A scenario is considered "solved" if the person replying can reference the Laws directly or otherwise provide a clear and definitively correct answer.

    To begin with, some of mine (using the style of the book of course!):

    - In an extravagant display of technology and finance, the organisers of a domestic T20 series have spared no expense. In one match, a batsman hits the ball and it crashes directly into the overhead "spider cam" and then falls into the hands of a fielder. The fielding side appeal for out caught. What is your decision?

    - It is the closing overs of an important match with the series tied 2-2. An egotistical batsman is on 96 not out, with one run needed to win the match for his team. He hits the ball toward the boundary and jogs toward the striker's end, eventually completing the run. His teammates all rush onto the field, one of them picking up the ball in celebration. The batsman protests loudly to you, saying that the ball would have gone for four had his teammate not picked it up, giving him a century. You are almost certain that, had the ball not been picked up, it would indeed have rolled over the rope. What do you tell the batsman?

    - A batsman, plays a defensive shot to a wrist spinner and loses his balance, almost falling over. As he turns, he sees the ball headed towards his stumps and swipes at it, still off balance. The ball skies over the wicketkeeper's head, hits the spare helmet resting on the turf and goes to the boundary. What is the outcome and what do you signal?

    - You are the official in a local club match between two semi-pro teams. You notice that your colleague has been making some abysmal decisions, and at the end of the next over you have a chat with him. He reveals to you that he has had a bit too much alcohol the night before and has been guessing all morning thus far. There is no third or fourth umpire to rely on. A spectator offers to take over for him. Can he replace your inebriated colleague?
    (NB - this one was actually in the book, albeit not under drunken circumstances.)

    - A fielder, running to chase a ball, suddenly stops and doubles over in pain and falls to the turf not moving. The batsmen, concerned, stop running and start in his direction. Suddenly, he rises, collects the ball, and throws it to the wicketkeeper, who throws down the stumps with the striker in mid pitch. The disgruntled batsman refuses to move until you have made your decision. What call do you make?

    Answers to those? More interesting scenarios?

    And by all means, GET THE BOOK! (Not being paid to promote it, but I love that book!)
     
  2. qpeedore SOTM Winner - July 2014

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    Oh, and if those ones are too easy (they are)...here's some fresh ones involving the DRS...

    - A close T20 match ends up with one wicket in hand and two runs needed for the batting team to win. The bowler, knowing the batsman will charge anything on the stumps, fires the ball down the leg side. You signal wide, as by your judgement the ball made no contact with any part of the batsman. The keeper collects and throws down the wicket, appealing for a stumping. Your colleague at square leg calls for the third umpire. It is revealed that the ball actually flicks the batsman's pads prior to being collected by the wicketkeeper, who then finds the batsman short of his ground. Who wins the match or is it a tie going into a Super Over?

    - An express pace fast bowler runs in to deliver and sends the batsman's off stump cartwheeling. You signal no ball for a front foot infraction. The bowler immediately makes the "T" asking for a review, saying he is 100% certain he did not overstep. Is he allowed to do this?

    - A batsman has just survived a close shout for LBW in a Test match. The agreement between the teams playing allow for the tracking and prediction system to be used for reviews. The fielding team asks for a review. The batsman watches the events unfold on the big screen in the ground, and, convinced that he will be given out after seeing the replay himself, starts to walk. The prediction shows up just as he is about to cross the rope, giving him the benefit of the doubt. He is seen shaking his head and saying that it looks out no matter what. He then crosses the boundary line. Is he out and how? What happens to the fielding team's remaining reviews?
     
  3. SWITCHHIT Club Cricketer

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    Good thread this is
     
  4. PokerAce Banned

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    First off a great thread.

    OUT or Dead Ball. I will go for OUT. In the Asia cup or World T20, there was this incident, I forget who it was now, but the shot hit the non striker's bat and bounced up and the fielder caught it. It was ruled out. So if the Spider Cam is also part of the playing equipment I don't see why it should be any diff. Ofcourse as a second fall back I would have said dead ball, but I guess I am an Umpire and I can't do that :)

    Since the winning run had been completed before the ball was picked up and thus before the ball had crossed the boundary, it would be only one run. Regardless of the ball being picked up, the winning run was comepleted before the ball had crossed the boundary and thus it is one run. That is was subsequently picked up has no bearing. So 1 RUN.

    DEAD BALL. You can't before striking or after striking kick the ball, and take a run. While one could do that do save his wicket (without obstructing a fielder of course), but once you deliberately kick a ball it is considered a Dead Ball.

    It would depend on the rules of whatever tournament one is playing, or the governing body. However under general situations I would think not. Just picture this happening where an Umpire, is suddenly replaced by a random guy from the crowd and no explanations given. So NO. (of course this is probably one of those trick questions where that answer is so obviously no, that it HAS TO BE Yes)

    OUT, the first and foremost thing a runner should do is get to his crease, and then once the umpire indicates the play is dead, leave the crease.

    I cannot think of one in cricket, but I have always had one with regard to when a player challenges a line call. In tennis if a player feel the ball is out but the umpire or line umpires don't call it out, he can immediately challenge it.

    However can a player challenge a line call on his own shot. That is to say, can the player challenge (on his own shot), a line call that says the ball was in, but he says it is out.

    I know it seems like a stupid thing to do, and why would any player deliberately want to say his shot was out.

    Well then here is scenario -

    "Player A on his own serve is facing match point at 15-40, and serving to player B, who needs just one point to win the match. (Or even if it is not a match point, just a normal break point). The point is the score in the serve game is 15-40 and player A is serving to Player B. Player A serves, and Player B puts the return down the line and wins the break. However Player A now wants to challenge the call which called his first serve in. He says the First Server didn't land in, and was in fact out. So the winner hit by Player B doesn't count, and instead there should now be a second serve."

    What happens here. Can Player A challenge the call on his own serve (in) on the ground that it was actually out, and thus the winner hit by Player B doesn't count and he should be serving his second serve?
     
  5. PokerAce Banned

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    Common sense would naturally dictate that it be a win for the bowling side. However DRS has clearly shown that it doesn't always do what common sense says (Jonathan Trott LBW Ashes First Test Summer). Also DRS doesn't apply to T20 Matches, so DRS is any case a non factor here, and thus I think with DRS out of the picture, sensible things can be done.

    So I say the third umpire tells the on fields umpire that it is not a wide and the batsman is short, and thus the fielding team has won. Same thing with DRS in place in an ODI, I am fairly sure we would have gone into a super over. So its a good thing there is no DRS in this situation to make a mess of things. FIELDING TEAM WINS.

    YES. A DRS review includes a review of first and fore most, No BALL. I think he could do it. However again DRS is a mess and it would not surprise me in the slightest, that a review cannot be asked on ground of that which is first and foremost checked for all reviews - No BALL

    LOL first of all this would be a classic DRS mess. Everyone thinks the decision is obvious and then the Third Umpire comes with a bomb (again Trott Dismissal First Ashes Test Summer). I think what you are saying is that even after being given n.o. the Batsman still says he is out and thus leaves the field, and in other words - WALKS. Well then he is out. I think it is called being out 'Retired'. Where if a batsman leaves the field voluntarily (without the consent of the umpire and not injured), he is out. The fielding team still loses a review, it doesn't matter whether the team challenging the decisions gets the challenge right or wrong, they lose a challenge regardless.
     
  6. qpeedore SOTM Winner - July 2014

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    Excellent replies, PokerAce. Not saying whether you're right or wrong yet! I'm hoping for a few other detailed replies such as yours before I reveal the answers according to the Laws. With enough luck, we can turn this little idea into something big.

    As for your own scenario...this was really supposed to be a cricketing thread, but I'll give it a shot. The rally consisted of two shots, the serve and the return. Player A should be well within his rights to challenge the call at that point. Had the rally consisted of more than just the serve and return, then he would not be able to challenge it. A player must stop playing either after the shot in question or the return if a challenge is to be made.
     
  7. PokerAce Banned

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    Yeah it is an excellent thread and even I am waiting for some replies to compare my answers. Shame there haven't been more replies. You could ofcourse PM me the answers :)

    Also with regard to my points what I think you have missed is the person who is saying the serve was fault is the person who served. As in Player A served and the Player A himself challenged that the ball landed out. If you took that into account when answering then I suppose its fine !! I can't tell you whether you are right or not because I genuinely dont know myself.
     
  8. Cricketman ICC Chairman

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    Andy Roddick did this once! It was exactly as mentioned - break point and the returner creamed a winner. Roddick reviewed his own serve and, to his dismay, the serve was in!
     
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  9. PokerAce Banned

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    Wow thx, have been wondering abt this for a while now. Great to finally know !!

    PS - Just checked out the clip, it was against David Ferrer and at Wimbledon !!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  10. Aislabie Custodian of the MCC Snuffbox

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    Out, caught, unless there is an agreement before the game that anything that touches the roof/spidercam is dead ball, like that six that Aaron Finch hit in the BBL that turned out not to be a six because it hit a roof strut.

    One run.

    Five penalty runs to the batting side, signalled by tapping my right hand against my left shoulder.

    I don't think there's anything in the laws that prevents it - I've had a club match before where something similar has happened. Although theoretically, the game could be abandoned - I think it depends on the league's regulations and not on the laws of the game. I could be miles out though. Therefore, I will say it is not allowed, but I don't really have any idea.

    I don't think there's any law specifically against it, but the fielder is being an absolute dickwad so I signal five penalty runs to the batting team for obstruction.

    If it was actually picked up on the third umpire's screen, I imagine that it would mean that the batsman was out stumped, and the fielding side would win by one run. There would then be considerable bitching about everything, a heated argument, and confusion from all concerned, but the fielding side ought to win (I think).

    Is his name Shane Watson? Yes, he is allowed to do it by all means, but he'd be a brave man to do so.

    I believe that he is out, LBW, because he has walked off the field following the appeal from the fielding side. The review would stand, though.

    One or two were more than a little challenging.

    ----------

    The bowler over-steps the front line. The batsman leg-glances a ball to the boundary, where the fielder makes a diving stop. You signal it as four runs because you believe that he was in contact with the boundary rope at the time. The fielder, meanwhile, throws the ball in to the keeper, who whips off the bails with the batsman, who stopped running, short of his ground. The fielding captain refers the decision, where it is revealed that the ball came off the pad, not the bat, and that the fielder was inside the boundary when he flicked the ball back. Describe the full series of signals used.

    I don't know for sure, but I think it would be thus:
    - No ball (bowler's umpire)
    - Four runs (bowler's umpire)
    - Referral (fielding captain)
    - Ignore last signal (arms across chest) (bowler's umpire)
    - Byes (to indicate that the no-ball did not hit the bat) (bowler's umpire)
    - Out (run out) (square leg umpire)
     
  11. qpeedore SOTM Winner - July 2014

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    The ball becomes dead the moment you signal four. Anything that happens after this will not be part of play.

    This, however, becomes an issue in your described scenario. The ball is dead, yet there was never a boundary scored. Does that mean that, on television confirmation, the play is allowed to proceed?

    The answer is no. Whether there was indeed a boundary or not, your signal of one ends play off of that delivery. There is no way to determine at the time of your initial signal that it was not four. You are not to uphold the fielding team's appeal, however you and your colleague at square leg can consult each other given the circumstances. You can only then review whether it is a four or not, the batsman hitting or not hitting the ball is not part of that.

    All players who show dissent or anger at your initial call or your handling of the situation should be reported to the match referee.

    My sequence of signals will be as such:
    One arm outstretched (no-ball)
    Arm waved back and forth horizontally (four runs)
    Walkie-talkie to the third umpire (review the boundary call ALONE)
    Arms crossed touching shoulders (revoke last call of four)

    Play on.

    EDIT: Any runs scored prior to your signal will count. Once the batsmen have crossed but not completed any (further) runs they are to remain at the ends they were running to and that run will not count. If they have not as yet crossed, they are to return to their respective ends.

    RE-EDIT: Answers to the first scenarios coming soon!
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  12. qpeedore SOTM Winner - July 2014

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    Leaving one:

    The second innings of a domestic game begins with the bowler delivering a full tosswhich is duly hit for six by the batsman. The next ball, however, finds the ball rapping the pads halfway up. Nobody contests that he is out LBW. As the batsman walks past, however, he mutters to you, "Maybe if he was standing here, the decision would have been different," referring to the square leg umpire.
    You only then realise to your dismay that you and your colleague have not switched ends, as is customary.
    What now?
     
  13. PokerAce Banned

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    I didn't get this at all. It is customary for umpires to change ends after every six ... WHAT !!

    You say the second innings begins with a six, so thats 0.1 overs. Next ball is LBW, so that is 0.2 overs. Why on earth is it customary for the umpires to switch ends between 0.1 and 0.2 overs, just because the first ball went for a six. I mean seriously what?
     
  14. qpeedore SOTM Winner - July 2014

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    To clarify, I mean you and him haven't changed ends at the start of the second innings.
     
  15. qpeedore SOTM Winner - July 2014

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    Time to revive this thread. I refuse to let it die, even after almost a year.

    The official answers are as follows...

    1. (Reference: Law 19.1) Before play begins, the on field umpires can both agree that any object which may come into contact with the ball can be designated a set number of runs. This includes the spider cam. Now, the odds of it actually happening are astronomical, so they would likely not call it as such. Therefore if it was not previously agreed upon as a set amount of runs, the spider cam will be considered as part of play and the batsman is out.
    In the days of yore, when England and Australia had the sightscreens within the field of play, those would have come into play more often. The two on field umpires and team captains would have agreed that a ball hitting it on the full was a six, and any ball hitting it on the bounce was a four, even if the ball had not actually crossed the boundary marker yet.
    Hmm...what if the ball rolls UNDER the screen but falls short of the rope?

    2. (Reference: Law 21.6) The match ends once the winning single has been completed. According to the laws, if a boundary is scored before the batsmen can complete the winning runs, then that boundary is credited to the batsman. In this case, the run has been completed, and the match is thus over. Whether the ball would have crossed the boundary or not after that run is complete is irrelevant. The disgruntled batsman has to deal with 97 not out.

    3. (Reference: Law 34.4) Call dead ball once the wicket is no longer in danger of being broken. A batsman is allowed to strike the ball more than once if it is going to threaten to break the stumps at his end. However, he can score no runs from these attempts, and all penalty runs (ie ball hitting the helmet) are not applicable. Runs can only be scored from the first attempt to play a shot.
    Note, however, that a batsman can legitimately hit the ball more than once and score runs (say, a square cut that first strikes the toe then the top half of the bat). The advent of HotSpot has shown us several instances of the ball striking the bat more than once. It is the initial intent and shot by the batsman which counts, rather than the number of times the ball strikes the bat. For scoring purposes, the ball is deemed to have struck the bat once.

    3. (Reference: Law 3.2) Provided that the spectator shows some knowledge of the Laws, you can allow him to replace your drunk colleague. An umpire can be replaced in exceptional circumstances, and seeing as that your colleague is clearly in no state to officiate, this will count. A replacement umpire, however, must only stand at square leg and you will stand at the non striker's end each over unless both captains agree that he should take full responsibility as an umpire.
    This does not apply in international matches or matches where there is a designated reserve umpire. The reserve umpire can take over all duties of any umpire and will alternate between non striker's end and square leg as any other.

    4. (Reference: Law 42.2) If, in your opinion, the fielder has unfairly fooled the batsman into thinking that he was legitimately injured, signal dead ball and the wicket is not lost. The fielder in question should be reported to the match referee at the next interval for bringing the game into disrepute.
    If, however, you believe the fielder to have collapsed through natural reasons and then recovered, then the batsman is out on appeal. However, given the circumstances, it is difficult to tell and dead ball is the best call to make. There is no way for you to tell if the fielder is truly hurt and a collapse with subsequent lack of motion is serious enough for you to halt play regardless of the subsequent events.

    5. (Reference: ICC Standard Test Match Playing Conditions, Appendix A, 3.3) The third umpire will tell his on field colleagues that the ball has brushed the batsman's pad on the way through. No factual information is to be withheld from the standing umpires, whether it relates to the actual dismissal or not, as the review begins with checking for a no ball and ends when the wicket is broken. It will then be up to the umpire at the striker's end to decide if he wants to reverse his call of wide. In such a close match, the striker's end umpire should thus revoke his wide call and then give the batsman out stumped. Fielding team wins by one run.

    6. (Reference: ICC Standard Test Match Playing Conditions, Appendix A, 3.1) The bowler is well within his rights to want the decision reviewed, as it applies to any part of the decision of not out by the umpire. However it is the responsibility of the fielding captain to be the one to officially ask for the review. Unless the captain makes the signal, the bowler can stand with his arms in the "T" all day if he wishes.

    7. (Reference: Law 2.9) The batsman has left of his own will, as such, he will be considered to have "Retired". The umpires must be informed of the reason for the retirement before the next ball can be bowled. The batsman can be allowed to resume his innings only at the fall of a wicket. If he has retired due to injury or illness, he can resume as normal. However, if he has retired due to some other circumstance, it is the right of the opposition captain to decide whether he can resume his innings or not. In the situation where the batsman chooses to end his innings or the fielding captain will not allow him batting again (ie not retired due to injury) he is to be recorded as "retired out.")
    "Retired hurt" and not batting again is basically the same as "retired not out". However, there has only ever been one official "retired not out" recorded in Test history. Gordon Greenidge (West Indies) retired after scoring 154 in order to be with his dying daughter.

    8. Didn't make this one totally clear. On field umpires are to switch ends at the start of each new innings. The scenario was supposed to highlight that due to whatever reason, this did not happen. There is no official law to reference for this, however I believe that once the error has been identified, the two on field umpires should report it to the match referee and then proceed to stand at the proper ends at the start of the next over. It means that you also stand at the non striker's end in the next over.
    The batsman is still out, however, and his dissent should bereported to the match referee. GIven the situation, his fine will probably not be as big as it should have been, but you and your colleague are top officials and impartial anyway.
     

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