Are we seeing a revival in quality pace attacks in test cricket?

[pcfan123]

How would I go about checking what Vettori averaged when Bond was playing in the same match?

 

[Chewie]

In the 18 matches he played with Bond he averaged 24.74 with 3 5-fors and 1 ten wicket haul.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

 

[-D-S-B-]

In terms of upcoming talent, we have Michael Bates and Trent Boult, but not really anyone else I can think of (DSB will want me to mention Wagner).

Hmm, I don't mind him being left out. He came into the domestic scene with a bang and a lot of media attention, but last season he was very average. I'm becoming less convinced about him tbh. He needs to perform as our leading bowler this coming season to get people talking about him again.

 

[Stag]

Hmm if I were a Kiwi fan I'd be pretty worried. Their batting is very weak, and their bowling really isn't anywhere near threatening. Vettori is an average test bowler, and the quicks aren't that promising. Southee came in with a bang and has since dropped on pace and control. Not good.

Are you joking? Hop off your high horse I think, Vettori is far better than just an average test bowler. He is also a great batsman, as well as being captain, selector and a true legend of New Zealand cricket. He is one of the best spinners in the world so to call him an average test bowler is truly insulting.

Southee has shown heaps of promise, give him time if you must. He is only young but has serious potential and he will really turn into a future star. We also have plenty of other great fast bowlers - Shane Bond and Iain O'Brien have been legends for New Zealand but we still have Chris Martin, Mark Gillespie as well as Kyle Mills and if I'm to be honest our fast bowling attack is definitely still up there with the 'world's best', whatever that is.

 

[Adarsh]

Vettori's bowling average is 33.86. If we exclude his performace against Bangladesh his average is 37.86. Any bowler who averages about 38, removing Bangladesh, is average. Is that not a fair assessment ?

And I don't know why you're mentioning his captaining, batting etc, I only mentioned his bowling. He's nothing special.

Adarsh added 8 Minutes and 34 Seconds later...

A bowling attack of Mills, Gillespie, Southee and Vettori up with the world's best ?! What ?!

England : Anderson, Broad, Finn and Swann are better.
South Africa: Steyn, Morkel, Harris, Kallis and Tsotsobe/Botha are better.
Pakistan : Aamer, Asif, Gul, Ajmal/Kaneria are better.

At best the New Zealand bowling line up is on par with India, Srilanka and West Indies. If you have statistics that show otherwise, I'd be glad to admit I'm wrong.

 

[War]

Vettori's bowling average is 33.86. If we exclude his performace against Bangladesh his average is 37.86. Any bowler who averages about 38, removing Bangladesh, is average. Is that not a fair assessment ?

And I don't know why you're mentioning his captaining, batting etc, I only mentioned his bowling. He's nothing special..

Just to but in. The old age 'statistics dont tell the whole truth" applies perfectly to Vettori's bowling. Since just by watching him bowl in all circumstances in his career, its fairly obvious he's better than his average suggest.

When judging Vettori high test average you have to take certain factors into consideration, which stats would never tell you:

(A) Vettori is a naturally attacking spinner. But given for the majority of his career he hasn't ahd the luxury to have a strong pace attack to ease his workload. He has often being used as a containing role & opposition batsmen when playing NZ tend to playing him out - instead of trying to be aggressive. This has lead to average going up.

(B) Unlike Asian spinners who get to bowl on turners alot. Vettori plays in NZ where you usually have good seam-bowler friendly conditons. So thats a disadvantage. They few times in his career he has gotten the chance to bowl on turners he has a fairly good record:

- Averages 26 in Sri Lanka

- Was very impressive in India 1998/99

But if you look @ his performances vs Australia, where he troubled them alot in every test series he has played. It is clear he is top-class bowler, which is why in the ICC super test 2005, he was picked.

The only legitimate critique of Vettori is that on 5th day wickets in recent years againts team that are looking to survive or defensive teams in general. He doesn't have many magic deliveries in his repotoire, to break such teams. He is far better bowler when batsmen are being aggressive, which is why he has done so well vs AUS in test & his excellent ODI & T20 record.

 

[Vilander]

yes, certainly. look at india we have ishant and mithun as opening pair, truely great 'fast' bowlers.

 

[Adarsh]

War, let's not pick and choose random stats. Vettori has an average of 38.43 in the subcontinent, excluding Bangladesh.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

but batting looks to getting worse these days as well though. Gambhir is probably the only new face that looks to have genuine quality and he has barely played out side the subcontinent, so for all we know he could be a pie against pace bowling as well.

most teams are still dependent on their old guard or bringing in a domestic veteran rather than someone with real talent. a couple of the kiwis actually look quite good though, but then they don't have the competition of other nations to force through.

australia's inductions to their once legendary batting line up have been shane watson and marcus north. Sri Lanka's best find as been knocking some consistency into two old stalwarts in Dilshan and samaraweera. India still have most of the batsmen they began the 00s with, pakistan don't have any batsmen, windies are waiting for chanderpaul to retire before they sink to unfathomed depths, only england and south africa have developed line ups that feel fresher and potentially equal to or better than their 00s ones.

however yes, I actually hope this era is more about fast bowling. To be fair, Asif being a prat and shane bond, simon jones, brett lee, shoaib akhtar and flintoff being so injury prone didn't help the 00s though. South africa even ran Donald into the ground a good few years before he should have been finished.

 

[War]

War, let's not pick and choose random stats. Vettori has an average of 38.43 in the subcontinent, excluding Bangladesh.

I'm not picking & chosing stats. Rather i'm highlighting to you the dynamics of Vettori's bowling career & using the relevant stats to back up my point.

As i mentioned in point A:

(A) Vettori is a naturally attacking spinner. But given for the majority of his career he hasn't ahd the luxury to have a strong pace attack to ease his workload. He has often being used as a containing role & opposition batsmen when playing NZ tend to playing him out - instead of trying to be aggressive. This has lead to average going up.

Which is why for his record in India i highligted his series performances in India 1999. When NZ took a fairly strong bowling pace-attack to that series. Which included Cairms, Nash @ their peaks. Vettori was able to bowl attackingly & although he averaged 45 in that series, all those who saw him bowl (young Vettori ATT) was extremely by his efforts.

You compare that to his next tour to India in 2003/04, when without a strong pace attack (No Bond, Cairns etc). Vettori being the main bowler, had to sacrifice his attacking threat & adapt a containing role.


Same logic applies to his record in Sri Lanka. Coincidentally in both 98/99 & 2002/03 tours to SRI, Vettori had strong pace-bowlig/bowling attack to ease his workload (Cairns @ his peak in 98/99 & Bond in 02/03). Which is why his record in SRI is so good even though in NZs most recent tour to SRI in 2009, he had a crap attack.

He only played 1 test in PAK on a absolute road. That even Warne & Murali @ their best may have struggled to take wickets on. Soo you cant take anything from that.

So overall basically Vettori had good bowling support in the sub-continent he bowled well.

 

[War]

but batting looks to getting worse these days as well though. Gambhir is probably the only new face that looks to have genuine quality and he has barely played out side the subcontinent, so for all we know he could be a pie against pace bowling as well.

most teams are still dependent on their old guard or bringing in a domestic veteran rather than someone with real talent. a couple of the kiwis actually look quite good though, but then they don't have the competition of other nations to force through.

australia's inductions to their once legendary batting line up have been shane watson and marcus north. Sri Lanka's best find as been knocking some consistency into two old stalwarts in Dilshan and samaraweera. India still have most of the batsmen they began the 00s with, pakistan don't have any batsmen, windies are waiting for chanderpaul to retire before they sink to unfathomed depths, only england and south africa have developed line ups that feel fresher and potentially equal to or better than their 00s ones.

however yes, I actually hope this era is more about fast bowling. To be fair, Asif being a prat and shane bond, simon jones, brett lee, shoaib akhtar and flintoff being so injury prone didn't help the 00s though. South africa even ran Donald into the ground a good few years before he should have been finished.

Interesting observation on world batting. But i dont think its all that bad to be fair.

Australia still have alot of talent. Better selection policies & the likes of Hodge, D Hussey, Phil Hughes, Rogers could have been involved in the test batting line-up ATM. While they have talented youngster like Ferguson & Khawajala (spell check), so i wont be too concerned with AUS batting resources post Ponting.

South Africa & ENG are fairly solid.

India yea, they are still depending on their old legend trio. But they do have the hottest young batting talents in the world in Sharma, Raina, Pujara, Kohli, Tiwary, Panday, Vijay. Surely one of them will come good in the future, instead of becoming Yuvraj clones.

SRI still depend on the their old guard. The likes of Kapugedera, Chamara Silva, Kadamby have stepped up @ test level. But i guess for the time being SRI are fine too.

PAK if it wasn't for all the internal mess could conceivably have have Younis & MoYo. But yea outside of U Akmal, their young batsmen dont look to flash.

C'Paul & the windies is definately a problem. When he retires, a big hole could definatley be left for years to come.

 

[Cricketman]

A full strength Indian attack IMO is not that bad.

Zaheer Khan, Ishant Sharma, and Sreesanth in seaming conditions I feel will be very, very potent. Throw in a good spinner like Harbhajan or Ojha and thats a fantastic 4 bowlers. Certainly not like some McGrath-Lee-Gillespie-Warne deal but a decent attack.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Good spinner and Harbhajan in the same sentence without using the word 'Not'. Wow

Zak, Ishant, Sreesanth, RP when in form are very lethal. Praveen Kumar is also very good when the ball swings.

 

[Cricketman]

Yeah, everyone here knows my hate for bhaj. But there is no chance in hell the Indian selectors are going to drop him, unfortunately. He isn't that bad, he's better than 99% of ROW spinners.

 

[Symptom_Control]

No, there is not even one great fast bowler playing right now. Steyn may get there but he has a way to go.