Graeme Swann vs Jim Laker and the legacy of English spinners
- Thread starter War
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Well it's safe to say that Swann is not doing himself any favours in the comparison at present: 10/590 in his 5 Tests this summer. So that even when he goes past Laker it won't be one of those "good" moments because his recent form will be tainting it a bit.
And I still don't rate Swann really. Against the 3 strongest teams of recent years (Aus, SA & Ind) he averages 39.68 vs 23.12 against everyone else. He's got to do better than that to be a great.
And I still don't rate Swann really. Against the 3 strongest teams of recent years (Aus, SA & Ind) he averages 39.68 vs 23.12 against everyone else. He's got to do better than that to be a great.
War
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Well that's the thing i know his numbers don't look fantastic this home summer, but at the same time i haven't noticed any real signs of decline at all.
In general this summer he hasn't really gotten much turning tracks. The windies came in early season when the ball was swinging and the fast bowlers did the job - he just had to be a stock bowler holding up and end - so that's not much of an issue.
When SA came in the oval test like the entire England attack, they were pasted by Smith/Amla. He was dropped crazily for the headingley test on pitch were Pietersen with his part time off-breaks to 3 wickets in the second innings. At Lord's i thought he was quite dangerous, but was a bit unlucky.
However had a very good series in South Africa 2009/10, where he was head and shoulders, England's best bowler.
Same thing happened vs India and Australa in recent tours.
The England quicks owned AUS and IND batting line-ups on seaming decks and the only two times when Swann got turning tracks in Adelaide and at the Oval - he spun England to victories. Which is all that can be asked of Swann really.
When he gets favourable conditions and has to be the main wicket-taking threat as he showed in Sri Lanka in March, he steps up.
If Swann were to struggle in India this winter, where he will have helpful pitches in all 4 tests, only then can we say his form is an issue.
cricket_icon
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I think Swann has been better than Laker for a while now. But Underwood was a phenomenal bowler, better than Laker and Swann. Swann will not come anywhere near 300 test wickets.
192 wickets in 4 years and here you are saying he can't get 300.
cricket_icon
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he'll finish just past 200.
He will not be playing in another 4 years time. His lost the form he has from 09-11, still a very good bowler who picks up a tonne of wickets on helpful pitches but has struggled against better opposition. In fact he has only 10 wickets in the last 5 games at an average of 59. Of course it could simply be a blip but we must remember he is already 33 (I think), he isn't going to be getting any better over time. There's only one way for him to go from here and that's down.
Don't get me wrong, he is still the second best spinner out there but I bet my house he will not end up a 300 wicket man.
Yeah pretty right - I agree. That makes his records vs Ind and Aus and SA look worse because of the wickets. I don't think that's all the difference though
The one match I will cite, and it's probably the only blight on Swann's turning pitch record, is 1st Ashes Test, Cardiff 2009. England played 2 spinners on a dry pitch, and Swann bowled junk - and was the first to admit it.How'd he do against us in the '08 tour in India?
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Cricket Records | Records | Pataudi Trophy, 2008/09 - England | Batting and bowling averages | ESPN Cricinfo
Beats Warne's average in India.
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Cricket Records | Records | Pataudi Trophy, 2008/09 - England | Batting and bowling averages | ESPN Cricinfo
Beats Warne's average in India.
War
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Some interesting statements here my friend.
He has 192 wickets now, so to suggest he will end his career at just past 200 wickets doesn't make any sense.
Another 108 wickets to reach 300 is very likely to happen unless he has a dramatically bad series in the next year, loses form totally and is dropped forever. A scenario which is highly unlikely to happen.
If he picks up a ton of wickets on helpful pitches how is that even a criticism?. Last i checked, that is when you want your test spinner to be taking wickets. When the pitch is helpful. Australia recently had a dud spinner in Nathan Haurtiz who couldn't even that.
I do agree sorta however that he probably doesn't have another dimension to take this bowling and eventually he will only go down. However i don't see that "down" happening anytime soon.
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Yeah pretty right - I agree. That makes his records vs Ind and Aus and SA look worse because of the wickets. I don't think that's all the difference though
He bowled junk yea, but the period in which Swann bowled in that cardiff test, the pitch was still very much a road and no turn was present.
That vicious turn came into play on the last day (final session of the 4th day).
When he got turners in the 2009 ashes @ lords and the oval, he spun AUS out, just like how he did @ Adelaide.
^Yes he didn't do too well...I disregarded that series because it was his first one and a while ago now. This upcoming series in India will be a BETTER test of how good Swann really is.
Really wish we had more tours between the 'top' nations. This will most likely be Swann's last tour to India, that's what 2 in a career? Not enough if you ask me.
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Almost the same situation with Warne, 15 year career, 3 tours to India.
cricket_icon
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Some pretty good counter arguments. Putting it that way I guess Swann will have 220-230 wickets by the end. His peak, sadly, has come and gone. I don't really see him having mammoth wicket taking moments in the months to come and he is getting physically older too. Admittedly spinners can last to their late 30s but how effect can he be in that time? I personally believe Adil Rashid needs to be given a real go in the team. He is a genuine spinning allrounder. 290+ wickets with a handful of first class centuries. That is very good by anyone's standards. There have been talks of him being mistreated at Yorkshire but his already had a couple 4 wickets hauls this year and a 5-for if I'm not mistaken (last 3 months or so).
Having said all that I wish Swann all the luck in the world, he seems a great bloke with a tonne of skill.
And only ONE India tour of Australia! Well 2003/04 was an India tour as well, but Warne was suspended and McGrath injured. Was especially sad because Warne vs Tendulkar was always a great battle, Tendulkar usually winning of course...but they only faced each other in 12 Tests. McGrath vs Tendulkar happened even less: only in 9 Tests - that was more the tragedy from Aus fans point of view because McGrath always did pretty well vs SRT. Considering Sachin has now played 35 Tests vs Aus, we have been unlucky that fate did not less us see the best contests more often.
puddleduck
Chairman of Selectors
Unless Adil Rashid has actually learnt how to bowl, I'd take those numbers with a pinch of salt. Admittedly I haven't seen much of him in the last year, but up until that point his bowling was highly mediocre.
Now it all makes sense, drawing against the best team in the world away, seemed kinda shady to me.
