How do you English fans feel about the substitute fielders?

valvolux

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I'll try my best not to sound like a sour australian - but the whole substitute fielding thing during the ashes did get up my nose. It wasn't so much the wickets effected by the substitutes, but more so the flaunting of the rules by England - and the obvious advantage it gave their bowlers. I think some new laws should be introduced to combat this immediately.

Firstly, you choose your best 11 for the game, and a 12th man. When one of your 11 goes down with an injury or a niggle, the 12th man comes on to replace that player. The only time a 13th or 14th man can come on, is if other players go down - but can't come on before the 12th man. And they shouldn't be coming off because they have just bowled a 10 over spell and need a rest - there needs to be an injury - a decision that needs to be made the umpires. If a player has a niggle that warrents leaving the ground, then surely they aren't fit to come back on for the rest of the day. The player should have to wait until a drinks break, or one of the regular breaks to receive treatment. It's unfortunate if a player goes down during a match - but it is more than likely that the player wasn't 100% before the match - a risk the team has chosen to take.

Now I don't think anyone can argue against the fact that the england bowlers came off a hell of a lot after a long spell - they said that nature was calling - but I think it's obvious to everyone (including all of the english commentators) that a shower and massage was more likely what was going on. Is this in the spirit of the game? I don't think so - I think it borders on cheating. The players get ample breaks during the game to take a pee, so why couldn't they wait until the next drinks break? Why don't they all take a pee during the breaks so that there's no need to do so during the match - makes sense to me, but I guess it's obvious that this wasn't actually what they were doing.

It takes a lot of the skill out of captaining. A captain needs to judge how long a bowler is operating for - and he musn't let them over do it - and if he does, he must accept the fact that he's going to have one very tired fielder out there - and that he may need to rest the bowler for a fair while to recharge his batteries. Maybe he should then think about putting them in slips to give them a rest, realising that perhaps he's not the greatest pair of hands. There shouldn't be a get out of jail clause that says he can send this bowler into the change rooms to have a refreshing shower, change of kit and a nice leg massage - in the guise of a toilet break....while a specialist fielder is out there, who wasn't even named in the squad at the start of the test match, who is 3 times the fielder of the bowler who is in the midst of his 20 minute long pee (must have big bladders in england!). Unlike our dads army of bowlers, the english bowlers are relatively young and fit, surely fit enough to withstand a day of test cricket.

One thing that erked me was a comment by one of the english commentators - he basically said,knowing full well that what the english was doing was wrong, "if the england players can get away with it, why don't the aussies do the same thing?" He said it as if the australians were stupid not to do the same. Well it's simple...apart from being a breach of the rules, a touring party only brings over players that are likely to play in the test matches - so that more or less means the options you have available are top line batsmen or bowlers. It is impossible for the touring party to pluck a guy out of obscurity for a couple of hours a day for one test match - would look pretty suss if they flew over an absolute nobody (like pratt, and that other older fella) that would come on the field sporadically but never actually get a ball or bat in his hand.

Now correct me if i'm wrong, but the teams have to name a 14? man squad prior to the start of the test match. THe substitue fielder should only be allowed to come from this squad - If a team wants to include a specialist fielder, then they have to be fully prepared to play this fielder if one of their frontline bowlers steps on a ball on the morning of the 1st day.

Just my 2c, would be interested to hear from english fans and their take on things. I think it took the gloss off a fantastic series, as I don't think it was a completely even playing field. I doubt it had a significant affect on the results, but the fact it occured so often, does leave a bit of a sour taste in the mouth. I will be most interested to see how these english bowlers cope in the heat of the sub-continent. If the indians or pakis are smart - they should create a bit of fuss over this straight away. Will be more interesting to see what peripheral players make the touring party of the english side.
 

FreddieFan

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I'm an English fan, and I'm unsure about it. From what I can see, its within the rules but outside the spirit. I wasn't around at the time, but I hear Dennis Lillee used to do pretty much exactly the same thing.
Also, the intensity of test cricket now is much higher than it used to be. I wouldn't begrudge the aussie bowlers going off for a breather. I heard the ICC are going to be looking into this, am I correct on that?

I feel it is a bit unfair to accuse the players have a shower and a massage - we don't know this for sure, and it is unfair to draw conclusions like this.
 

icyman

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No problems at all.
i feel england used the sub properly and there was no violation of any rules.
Also why would jones go off just when he'd picked up a 5 wicket haul ?

My question to ponting is why did he not say anything when the sub was bought on ?
why wait till he got out ?
 

barmyarmy

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Ponting was unfortunate in that he picked the one occasion where a sub was on the field totally legitimately (for Simon Jones' injury).
As you say there are two issues here. The first is the frequency of subs coming on and for how long, the second is who the subs are.
Addressing the first point I don't think it is accurate to say the England bowlers were going off for a shower and a massage. It was just a toilet stop and a clean shirt most of the time. Ironically it was Lillee and Thompson who first started using the rule to get a shower and massage after their spell so Aus haven't got all that much to complain about.
The second issue is one that I agree with you on however. The substitute should be the 12th man and if he is already on then someone else in the squad. I do think it isn't in the spirit of the rules to have fielding specialists as subs and would be happy to see the ICC tighten up on that one. It's not acceptable to ask the counties for their best fielders so they can then be used to improve the team's performance. If a player isn't in the squad for their batting or bowling they shouldn't be on the pitch (although we did let Anthoney McGrath into the team!).
 

andrew_nixon

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Rules need to be introduced too to stop teams using players as subs who aren't actually eligible to play for them. In the test between England and New Zealand at Lord's last year, England used Frederick Klokker as a sub fielder, and he's Danish!
 

valvolux

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Ok, so we don't know for sure what they were doing off the field - but it seems highly unlikely that it was for a pee. There are some damning stats out there - which shows how often the sub came on to replace a bowler who'd just finished a spell - i've heard the numbers before, i won't quote anything until I find the numbers on the internet...as they were from the mouth of an australian, but if they're true, it's pretty unbelievable. I'll do a quick search and get bak to you.

The laws of the game say that a substitute fielder can only come on if a player is injured. It doesn't even say if they have can come on if a player needs to pee - however this seems to be an unwritten law that has been accepted for years, and I guess when you have to go, you have to go. The abuse of it is what is a little bit unsavory. A good example was in the 4th test, when flintoff went off the field immediately after a spell, 10 minutes before tea. Surely he could've waited 10 minutes if he did infact need to pee? Or maybe they know that the best time to get a set of hands on those sore muscles is right after they've bowled...and not let them cool down in the outfield.

I guess unless we can prove that they went off to have a shower and a massage (which was obvious when at times players came on in a fresh uniform) we can't say they were playing outside the rules. But that's what makes it so hard to police - unless the players are accompanied by an official to the change rooms, no one knows what actually goes on - and hence the need for changes to the rules.

The run out of ponting was unfortunate - jones did indeed have a good reason to be off the field. But there was another sub on at the very same time - what was the other player's excuse? But as for ponting not saying a thing before it - i don't know what press you get in england, but we had articles on it right throughout the one dayers. I'm pretty sure it was flagged during the SA series as well. But I guess unless the umpires take action, nothing can be done about it.

But no 2 ways about it, no team has ever used the substitute fielder system more than England did in this ashes series. As for in the Lillee era - those guys use to slam down a couple of stubbies pre-match, and would wash down their lunch with a couple more - of course they're gonna need to pee at some point...and if not that, ring up a couple of ex-girlfriends to tell them how much they love them!
 

Sureshot

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Hang on what if a player changed clothes because they had ripped or they were to sweaty for him to bowl in?
 

andrew_nixon

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I see no problem in allowing a player to go off for a few minutes to use the toilet, or to have some bandaging replaced or anything like that.

I think Pontings point though is that England only ever seem to do this with the fast bowlers. Why does no other England player ever need a ****?
 

Sureshot

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Maybe the bowlers are a bit on the dull side, never saw it happen with Freddie iirc.
 

valvolux

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Sureshot said:
Hang on what if a player changed clothes because they had ripped or they were to sweaty for him to bowl in?

You're clutching at straws here. Too sweaty to bowl in? Give it up, this series was in england, not india. And you can't rip your clothes unless you are ON the field. Will be mighty interesting to see the use of substitutes in the sub continent where player comfort is at its lowest.

I have no doubt in my mind it was to give the fast bowlers a rest and a rub down. The only other player i can remember leaving the field besides a fast bowler was Tres - now who besides a fast bowler needs a rest after a long day on the field? The opening batsmen.

The aussies didn't do it, because the likes of brett lee and glenn mcgrath are awesome outfielders - the type you want on the field as a bowling team.

It's all very suss and I think it's a bit strange that nothing was done about it. I have no doubt that the australian camp haven't let this slide - hopefully it will be a thing of the past.
 

Sureshot

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rashaba16 said:
Interestingly enough. This isn't the beginning of England doing this as I expected. Look at this.

The Gilchrist Factor and Subbed Out

Go to the near the bottom of the page and see Englands stats against other teams using substitutes.

Also...

ICC to consult captains on ground rules

England isn't playing within the spirit of the game.

Firstly it's within the rules secondly. India are only 0.04 tests per dismissal behind and WIndies ae only 0.05 tests per dismissal hardly a difference.

And it's not like the subs won us the Ashes.

Also Valvolux Jones is a very good fielder, and they could've ripped their shirt as they were on the field at one point. We did it so what, the only peoples opinions who matter at the time were the Umpires and they said NOTHING.

Also when Gary pratt was on iirc he was on for Jones who WAS injured.
 

sachin

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andrew_nixon said:
Rules need to be introduced too to stop teams using players as subs who aren't actually eligible to play for them. In the test between England and New Zealand at Lord's last year, England used Frederick Klokker as a sub fielder, and he's Danish!
I agree with Andrew.
 

tassietiger

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Most people are saying it is within the rules but against the spirit of cricket. WRONG (on the first bit, the last bit's right). It is not within the rules to substitute players who aren't injured and simply having a rest. Please stop referring to it as within the rules.
 

Sureshot

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But the umpires allowed it, so it's their problem not ours.

It's not as though the fielding subs won us the Ashes.
 

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