Shakib - the 5th best spinner in the world?

[ZoraxDoom]

And you base that on what?

Actually watching him. He's real quality. He's as accurate as any other spinner I've seen, changes his pace with no change in action, and can rip it big. The last fact alone gives him an edge on Vettori and Bhajji.

Note though, by saying he is a better bowler I'm not implying he has a better temperament. Just better skillz. He could just as well end up bowling utter rubbish when the team needs him the most. I've seen him mostly in domestic cricket, old India matches and the IPL. He didn't seem to choke or appear toothless at International level whenever he played, and certainly deserved more chances than he got. It just seems the selectors thought he was too old by the time Jumbo retired and so went for Ojha instead.

 

[Howsie]

It's just the way you said it by saying he's a better spinner then both of them. Fair enough that you think he was short changed and could of been a fantastic international spinner, but to say he is better then them is quite laughable when you look at their records.

 

[SciD]

Kartik was nothing special. He needed assistance from pitches to work his magic. Even Sunil Joshi was way better than him.

How many matches has he won for India? He had chance to win India series in Australia but could not get Aussies out on last day of Sydney test.

 

[King Pietersen]

Murali, Mendis, Harbhajan, Vettori and Swann > Shakib. Add Ajmal, Afridi and Ojha to that in ODi's and T20's as well. Think you're massively over-rating the talents of Shakib tbh. Shakib could be an excellent bowler in the future, but atm I'd take all those names ahead of him, and it'd only be his batting that would move him into an XI for mine, as a pure bowler, I'd put him behind the above names.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

You'd really rate Swann above Shakib? Why? Shakib is highly accurate, bowls well under pressure, spins it, has an armball and varies his pace beautifully. Swann might spin it more and probably is a bit more clever when he's bowling, but he isn't as accurate or as effective at drying up runs.

 

[King Pietersen]

Swann is as accurate as Shakib, he's only going at 2.93 an over in 2009, and is the 3rd highest wicket-taker in Test cricket, with 32 wickets at 30. Might be because I've seen more of Swann, and have seen a fairly limited amount of Shakib, but I'd rate Swann higher personally. He's superb at bowling to left-handers, get's turn, bounce and some real good drift, and has a good under-cutting straight-onner which, to left-handers especially is very effective. One problem I do have with Swann however, is his ability to handle pressure situations with the ball. He failed to bowl well in the 4th innings in India when India chased over 400, and also went missing at Cardiff when the pitch was turning. It's close between them, but having had more exposure and watched more of Swann, I'd side with him.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

these days I don't think we can take it as red that vettori is a better spinner.

shakib has got relatively similar figures to him in the series they've played against the same teams, most noticeably in the series were the two teams faced. shakib took 10 at 17.8, vettori took 14 at 14.2. Of course vettori's has the better stats, but then he was the one bowling to the significantly weaker line-up. He was pasted by south africa both times, whereas shakib wasn't and did rather well actually. shakibs figures are better against the west indies, but of course that was a worse west indies team than vettori faced. lets see how vettori does against sri lanka as shakib came out of that series with reasonable, not good, figures.

 

[irottev]

I'd rate Swann better than Shakib. As for Vettori he's better in all forms easily. He's facing Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka very soon so he'll get a good chance to prove himself (not that he already hasn't)

but then he was the one bowling to the significantly weaker line-up

Um, our batting line up aren't significantly stronger than anyone to be honest. With seamers I think it's a fair point, but when you're playing a weak side you can't really use that excuse because the other team's spinners will usually get to bowl more and have a better chance at getting wickets (due to less opening bowler penetration) meaning Shakib actually had the advantage. Also it was an away game for Vettori. But hey, that's your opinion.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Vettori bowled to weaker batsmen, and could bowl to the tail more.
Shakib bowled to stronger batsmen, and the tail less (Due to less effective backups).


And I don't see how getting to bowl more is any sort of advantage. His average and strike rate would have risen more, and it is clear he took less wickets than Vettori. No advantage obtained or to be obtained by bowling more overs.

 

[irottev]

Only 2 of Vettori's wickets were tailenders.

Bowling more helps with wicket tally, which is obviously what we're talking about. They basically bowled the same amount of overs so it doesn't really matter. If you can't work that basic math that bowling more deliveries = more chance at wickets then you need to go back and do school maths. As for average and strike rate - yes, true but that's not what i'm talking about.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Can't you make a signal post without being rude?


If you read closely, I said that bowling more overs is not an advantage because he didn't end up taking more wickets. It's also not an advantage because he was bowling more overs to better batsmen compared to few overs to lesser batsmen.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

Um, our batting line up aren't significantly stronger than anyone to be honest. With seamers I think it's a fair point, but when you're playing a weak side you can't really use that excuse because the other team's spinners will usually get to bowl more and have a better chance at getting wickets (due to less opening bowler penetration) meaning Shakib actually had the advantage. Also it was an away game for Vettori. But hey, that's your opinion.

you think it was easier for shakib bowling to your batsmen than it was vettori bowling to bangladesh batsmen? seriously?

using your logic that makes vettori about the worst spinner in international cricket apart from shakib, as when you switch the rolls and vettori has had to bowl more overs against the better team then he's been out bowled by the likes of harris and panesar.

anyway the point I was making is that on the same pitch vettori could not out bowl shakib enough to stake an obvious claim to being better, averaging 14 and 17 are much of much, it's both pretty much dominating the opposite team. also, if bowling less overs against a weaker team is not as much of an advantage then we can include shakibs figures against the west indies, which are much better than vettoris. as are his figures against south africa.

the last two years shakib has better figures than vettori.

 

[Howsie]

you think it was easier for shakib bowling to your batsmen than it was vettori bowling to bangladesh batsmen? seriously?

using your logic that makes vettori about the worst spinner in international cricket apart from shakib, as when you switch the rolls and vettori has had to bowl more overs against the better team then he's been out bowled by the likes of harris and panesar.

anyway the point I was making is that on the same pitch vettori could not out bowl shakib enough to stake an obvious claim to being better, averaging 14 and 17 are much of much, it's both pretty much dominating the opposite team. also, if bowling less overs against a weaker team is not as much of an advantage then we can include shakibs figures against the west indies, which are much better than vettoris. as are his figures against south africa.

the last two years shakib has better figures than vettori.

He's only played 14 matches, how about we wait until he plays 30-40 before making a judgement on their respective stats.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

well he's played more than swann and mendis and no one had any problems putting them above him as a player. you even vehemently argued that mendis should be above him the ODI rankings. well he hasn't played half as many matches as shakib so why the change of tune?

in fact in terms of spinners, the only ones with much more international experience are vettori, harbahajan, harris and murali.

that puts him 5th. well I guess we could say panesar is also still in international contention but if we want to start arguing panesar is the 5th best spinner in the world then I think we're getting a bit alice in wonderland.

 

[Howsie]

well he's played more than swann and mendis and no one had any problems putting them above him as a player. you even vehemently argued that mendis should be above him the ODI rankings. well he hasn't played half as many matches as shakib so why the change of tune?

I was merely saying that comparing their stats against other nations is rather pointless at this stage as Vettori has played 80 odd test matches, Shakib's played 14. Don't you think it's rather pointless to say he has a better record against South Africa when he's only played two games?

And for the record I wanted Mendis to be ranked number one because he has quite clearly been the best ODI bowler over the last year. I didn't try and compare his stats with anyone that had played over 200 ODI games