The End Of Australian Dominance?

[King Pietersen]

I reckon more batsman would prefer facing Stephen Harmison instead of Brett Lee.

I seriously doubt that. Justin Langer said this year that he was hoping that retiring from Test Matches would allow him to relax more at the crease and face a lower standard of bowlers, but he was amazed by the level of bowling he faced in the First Division of the County Championship, with Harmison being one of the bowlers that terrorised him. Harmison on form is far more deadly than Lee. He's got far more attributes that would make him far more difficult to face. His height means not only 90+mph but also bounce and swing, Harmison on form is a sight to behold. Lee mainly relies on out and out pace, and then abit of swing.

Harmison > Lee when they're both on form for me.

 

[sohum]

If they're both on form, I'd go for Lee over Harmison. When in rhythm, Lee can actually swing it at 150 kilometers an hour, a feat I don't think too many other bowlers can do. I think someone like Sidebottom or a Simon Jones-esque player will be way more devastating in England, although the Aussies' issues with playing back of a length bowling of late may find me eating my words.

 

[aussie_ben91]

Amazingly if you take out Harmison stat's against Bangladesh, New Zealand, West Indies and Zimbabwe then Harmison has taken 111 wickets @ 40.29 and the only country that Harmison averages under 30 against is Pakistan. And in all of those years against playing the top nations, he hasn't averaged under 38 with the ball in one calender year once. Some fearsome bowler, eh?

Lee is a far better bowler and is more relieable.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

You're just taking my words and trying to twist it the wrong way. Both are completely different circumstances and different types of bowlers. I'm not going to fall into your trap but nice try.

What do you mean by different circumstances? Whenever we provide FC statistics, you rubbish it claiming competition isn't tough enough or flat pitches or whatever other excuse you can get, and when the stats show unfavourably for one of your players, you say it is irrelevant?? I'm confused here.

BTW, Shakib Al Hasan has 4 five wicket hauls so far. Is he a better bowler than Freddie?

Seriously, stop making exceptions for your favourite players. Judge them all on equal ground. If more fiver fers = good bowler for you, apply it to every player. If good FC stats = good player, apply it to everyone. Stop picking and choosing how to apply stats to everyone's favour, you aren't impressing anyone, just beating around the bush and manipulating things to make your argument look good.

ZoraxDoom added 0 Minutes and 31 Seconds later...

Amazingly if you take out Harmison stat's against Bangladesh, New Zealand, West Indies and Zimbabwe then Harmison has taken 111 wickets @ 40.29 and the only country that Harmison averages under 30 against is Pakistan. And in all of those years against playing the top nations, he hasn't averaged under 38 with the ball in one calender year once. Some fearsome bowler, eh?

Lee is a far better bowler and is more relieable.

Weren't you the one who said stats against Minnows should count?

 

[King Pietersen]

No, Zorax, that's only when you're defending Hayden that you're allowed to include stats against Minnows (Y).

Harmison's stats are ruined by the fact he doesn't travel well. In England he's a gun. Taking 128 wickets at 28 with a very respectable strike rate. Lee and Harmison's stats are infact remarkably similar when you compare their successes in different countries. They both have fantastic records at home, and then struggle in most other countries apart from West Indies and then Pakistan for Harmison, and New Zealand for Lee. Neither of them are particularly impressive away from home tbh.

Lee's only averaged under 30 in 2 years as well. It's just that Lee has had more years where he's averaged in the 30's. They're very similar bowlers in terms of stats, and purely because I've seen more of Harmison on form I rate him higher.

 

[Ollie_H]

How can you take away stats from against West Indies and New Zealand? I can undertsand banglen and zimbabwe but not those to!

 

[Animator!]

They're different types of fast bowler though. It's a poor comparison at best. It's the same as comparing a Virender Sehwag type batsman to a Paul Collingwood/Graham Thorpe type. It's a redundant comparison because they're different in style, ability and role within the side.

Brett Lee is very much a bowler who relies on his natural ability to bowl hostile, quickly, swing the ball late and his accuracy. While Harmison doesn't have the same ability to bowl as regularly hostile, quickly or swing the ball like Lee and he doesn't have the same control as Brett Lee. What he does have however is his natural traits. Essentially, he is a massive lad, with big shoulders who hits the deck harder than Brett Lee and gets incredibly steep bounce.

 

[smssia0112]

I seriously doubt that. Justin Langer said this year that he was hoping that retiring from Test Matches would allow him to relax more at the crease and face a lower standard of bowlers, but he was amazed by the level of bowling he faced in the First Division of the County Championship, with Harmison being one of the bowlers that terrorised him. Harmison on form is far more deadly than Lee. He's got far more attributes that would make him far more difficult to face. His height means not only 90+mph but also bounce and swing, Harmison on form is a sight to behold. Lee mainly relies on out and out pace, and then abit of swing.

Harmison > Lee when they're both on form for me.

You've said that before, and I've said that Langer is 37 years old so it's no surprise Harmison troubled him.

It's an unnecessary comparison because as long as the selectors are sane, Lee won't be picked for the Ashes.

 

[RoboRocks]

You've said that before, and I've said that Langer is 37 years old so it's no surprise Harmison troubled him.

It's an unnecessary comparison because as long as the selectors are sane, Lee won't be picked for the Ashes.

If not Lee then possibly Hilfenhaus or Bollinger?

Clark will be the key to the bowling attack, he and Mitchell Johnson could be a useful new ball pair with Clark's accuracy and ability to move the ball and Johnson's pace. If Australia could get a swing bowler like Hilfinhausthen Australia still have a useful attack although they'll need to find a spinner. England don't play mystery spin that well so McGain could be in business if selected.

 

[aussie_ben91]

What do you mean by different circumstances? Whenever we provide FC statistics, you rubbish it claiming competition isn't tough enough or flat pitches or whatever other excuse you can get, and when the stats show unfavourably for one of your players, you say it is irrelevant?? I'm confused here.

BTW, Shakib Al Hasan has 4 five wicket hauls so far. Is he a better bowler than Freddie?

Seriously, stop making exceptions for your favourite players. Judge them all on equal ground. If more fiver fers = good bowler for you, apply it to every player. If good FC stats = good player, apply it to everyone. Stop picking and choosing how to apply stats to everyone's favour, you aren't impressing anyone, just beating around the bush and manipulating things to make your argument look good.

Weren't you the one who said stats against Minnows should count?

I love how people like this guy try accuse me of providing biased stats. Everyone does it but yet I'm the one that gets accused of it and whenever I provide the statistics that you, King Pietersen, manee or sohum use for a different arguement then they get discarded. Typical.

What has Shakib Al Hasan got to do with anything? I was comparing Andrew Flintoff to Australia's bowling attack, not Bangladesh's.

5fers do matter but you've got to look at the bowling attack around them? Obviously you're going to have a better chance taking a 5fer playing along side the Bangladesh attack then you would if you were bowling along side the English attack. Futhermore, it would obviously be harder to take a 5fer for Australia then it would if you were playing for England? But obviously it'll be harder to maintain a lower average with the lesser team that you play for.

Harmison's stats are ruined by the fact he doesn't travel well. In England he's a gun. Taking 128 wickets at 28 with a very respectable strike rate. Lee and Harmison's stats are infact remarkably similar when you compare their successes in different countries. They both have fantastic records at home, and then struggle in most other countries apart from West Indies and then Pakistan for Harmison, and New Zealand for Lee. Neither of them are particularly impressive away from home tbh.

Haha, that's funny. Didn't you once say that England have the most favourable conditions for pace bowling? I mean it is usually overcast so it is hard for batsman to see the ball under most circumstances. Shouldn't all English bowlers average under 25 with the ball if this is the case?

 

[smssia0112]

If not Lee then possibly Hilfenhaus or Bollinger?

Clark will be the key to the bowling attack, he and Mitchell Johnson could be a useful new ball pair with Clark's accuracy and ability to move the ball and Johnson's pace. If Australia could get a swing bowler like Hilfinhausthen Australia still have a useful attack although they'll need to find a spinner. England don't play mystery spin that well so McGain could be in business if selected.

Both Hilfenhaus and Bollinger are swing bowlers so definitely I expect one of them to play in England.

Basically our attack will probably work like this:
Clark: The tight, disciplined, economic bowler but also takes wickets and helps other bowlers get them by forcing batsmen to attack others to score.
Siddle: Basically our new Lee, has pace and a lot of heart, works really hard. Also got a pretty good short ball. He may take the new ball with Clark. Tait is another (unlikely) option to fill this role.
Johnson: Bowls best first change, often strikes when we need it the most, very important to the team's fortunes now.
Hilfenhaus or Bollinger: Swing bowler, will be important in English conditions. One of them could also take the new ball if it is swinging.
Spinner: Could be McGain, Hauritz or Krejza. May not be picked when it doesn't turn, replaced by an all rounder (Cameron White could be useful here for his batting and 'spin' bowling).

 

[aussie_ben91]

You could tell on the look of Ponting's face after he got out for 99 that he knew that the dominance had ended.

It was such a sad and indifferent moment because Ponting seems reluctant to raise his bat to the crowd after scoring a 100 and getting out when the team isn't secure of victory or in trouble. But on this occasion Ponting didn't even drop his head and gladly raised his bat without any concern as he trudged off the MCG and you wouldn't know that he had just been dismissed for 99.

The guy batted his heart out but everyone else in the team let him down.

 

[venom2011]

Give Siddle some time and he could be the best bowler amongst both teams in the Ashes. He looked a little flat at times, but I think he has some great potential. Clarke will be dependable, but Johnson is a bit like Harmison to me. Bowls way too much crap in between the good spells. With Lee's help I think they'll outperform the English pacemen by a fair margin.

 

[SciD]

MJ will have good stats but hes hardly bowler you will wanna put your money on.

 

[aussie_ben91]

MJ will have good stats but hes hardly bowler you will wanna put your money on.

The thing is, Johnson is a very unique bowler that many batsman aren't used to facing as he creates uncertainty with his angle and extreme pace - This is what gets him wickets.

Apart from Kevin Pietersen, the English batting is incredibly weak and I think that every English right-hander will struggle to deal with Johnson. Especially in England where Johnson might get the ball to move back in and he'll be near unplayable. I think the main key will be if Alastair Cook & Andrew Strauss can get runs at the top of the order and that will determine whether or not England will be competitive or if they'll get blown out of the water.

I'm predicting a very successful tour for MJ.