Possible solution for edges

[Gamer Pradosh]

Patch 3? Im play on PC, we already have Patch 3 dont we?

Patch#3 hasn't come for any platform...Patch#3 is the biggest patch of all which will have ONLINE AND OFFLINE CO-OP PLAY...And other fixes and tweaks for making the gameplay balanced both from the AI and Human point of view...

 

[cooks1st100]

Contrary to popular belief it seems to me that that the batting attributes do have an effect on AI batting. Not how they approach batting but how well the shots are played or not. How they bat is determined by the type of batsman they are (conservative, aggressive, etc) although they don't appear to be different to begin with after you have bowled for a while you will notice a slight difference between the styles. I guess this is how come tailenders bat in the same manner as the top order, they're the same just with lower attributes so they are easier to get out( trust me, they are).

I chose a team to bowl against which was South Africa, then went into the Academy and changed all the batting styles to either precise or conservative. This was to see if I could bring down the number of aerial shots. FAIL!! Still far too many shots hit through the air and have since changed the batting styles back to mirror the real players.

Before I go into what I did next I think I should mention this. If you want to have an enjoyable bowling experience have a go on amateur, I'm urging you, no I'm telling you, it's not beneath you, amateur is where it's at bowling wise. I've bowled a team out for under 170 in just under 50 overs, had 12 edges which resulted in 7 wickets, while at the other end of the spectrum the opposition have scored 380 in around 115 overs. Amateur ain't no walkover, in fact it's not far from the equivalent of batting at pro level, just simulate the batting and have a bowl.

But here lies the problem,. I want to bat AND bowl. I'm not that good at batting but I'm better than amateur. Pro is my batting level, I find it a great challenge, just when I'm thinking " batting is a breeze, may have to move up to veteren" at 80- 0, the game brings me back down to earth and I'm all out for under 200.

Pro bowling though, well it's hard, frustrating and hard, 100 odd overs of feeling how the Aussies would have been day one of the second test. I've played 2 innings where I have been given the second new ball, I vaguely remember in a JD haze only 3 edges in all of that, 2 being dropped, the second dropped catch resulting a few choice words from myself and it being switched off.No save and exit or forfeit match, just a "F**k this lark" and a finger jab at the switch!!

So I demoted myself back down to the ams, found it to be less stressful, just simulating the batting, maybe coming in for a Stuey Broad cameo slog, bowling and having some fun. Edges were still a bit of a premium, 3/4 an innings so I thought I'd have a go a improving on this by tweaking the attributes.

So to cut a very long winded story short, what I did was reduce all the SA batmens offside rating to 7 (about 30%), tailenders reduced to practically nothing. This has produced the varied results I have already mentioned on amateur. So just by reducing this attribute I have increased edges.


On pro though the results haven't been so noticeable but I would say there has been a very slight improvement but have only played 3 innings so far.


Wow that's a lot of typing just to basically say, pick a team, reduce their offside attr down to around 30 %,bowl on amateur, while simming the batting and see what you think.

I've got quite a bit more to say regarding pro level bowling but that's gonna have to wait for now.

 

[Dougie1]

I tried cook1st100s plan on pro level:

Reduced all the AI SA batsmen's offside rating to 7 (about 30%), and the tail-enders reduced to practically nothing.

After bowling 83 overs against the AI SA - i got one edge!

test bowling against the AI - what a YAWN!!

AI - totally scripted!

 

[Langeveldt]

I've done a lot of testing and have come to the conclusion that the sliders work, but not enough.

The attribute bars for batting are basically a Tim Southee at the very lowest, to a Kumar Sangakkara at the top. Whether a batsman is highly rated or not makes more of a difference to their strike rates than whether they are listed as conservative or not.

I've found a meek number 11 will average about 18-20 with a SR of 50, and your best players average about 50 with a SR of 65. Reducing lower order players and tailenders to nearly zero has made things a bit more real for me, but there is still work to do, and I hope they haven't abandoned this game altogether.

In the slog overs of an ODI or T20, the ball is going to go for six and four regardless of conditions or batsman or opposition or threat. Making shorter formats less realistic for mine

 

[Langeveldt]

I tried cook1st100s plan on pro level:

Reduced all the AI SA batsmen's offside rating to 7 (about 30%), and the tail-enders reduced to practically nothing.

After bowling 83 overs against the AI SA - i got one edge!

test bowling against the AI - what a YAWN!!

AI - totally scripted!

Essential that you play on a grassy pitch and amateur, not pro

 

[blockerdave]

Yeah, so it's all good an all but saying you have to game the attributes and restrict the level you play on is basically saying the whole mechanism is broke - which it is.

The input mechanism for bowling is lovely; the experience of bowling is awful. The AI in is not good enough and essentially broken, whether in how it bats or how it sets fields and makes bowling changes.

There's great fun to be had playing this game, but so far there's not really any possibility to play the full cricket experience - you cannot play a whole test match vs AI because it's just not fun bowling.

Patch 3 / future PC updates are crucial - Big Ant have to show they can fix the AI and produce realistic field sets and a proper AI batting/human bowling experience or there's precious little value in any future iteration.

 

[cooks1st100]

The input mechanism for bowling is lovely

Completely agree

the experience of bowling is awful.

Completely disagree, what makes you say it's awful? The experience of bowling is far from awful. Frustrating yeah but certainly not awful.

As I have repeated the bowling experience on amateur is pretty damn good, far better than any previous title. All that lets it down are the aerial shots, low run rate, although 2.5/2.75 an over I can deal with and the fact that batting is far too easy.

Now with pro and above, the run rate is slightly improved but the edges are far too rare How it plays apart from the aerial shots is not that bad. It's a challenge to get the opposition out in 3 sessions and despite what people sat you really can bowl to a set field. An innings for me usually takes between 80-120 overs to get the AI out and the wickets will generally be 3/4 edges, a couple bowled, an lbw and the rest caught playing aerial shots. Now that is far from broken.

Increase edges for the first 15/ 20 overs of the new ball and reduce the aerial shots and BigAnt won't be far from a very good bowling experience in my opinion.

I've just started bowling one internationals on veteran and it's a great experience, but batting wise it's far too hard for me. If you are good enough to bat at veteran level I highly recommend it.

 

[lastig]

Completely agree



Completely disagree, what makes you say it's awful? The experience of bowling is far from awful. Frustrating yeah but certainly not awful.

As I have repeated the bowling experience on amateur is pretty damn good, far better than any previous title. All that lets it down are the aerial shots, low run rate, although 2.5/2.75 an over I can deal with and the fact that batting is far too easy.

Now with pro and above, the run rate is slightly improved but the edges are far too rare How it plays apart from the aerial shots is not that bad. It's a challenge to get the opposition out in 3 sessions and despite what people sat you really can bowl to a set field. An innings for me usually takes between 80-120 overs to get the AI out and the wickets will generally be 3/4 edges, a couple bowled, an lbw and the rest caught playing aerial shots. Now that is far from broken.

Increase edges for the first 15/ 20 overs of the new ball and reduce the aerial shots and BigAnt won't be far from a very good bowling experience in my opinion.

I've just started bowling one internationals on veteran and it's a great experience, but batting wise it's far too hard for me. If you are good enough to bat at veteran level I highly recommend it.

To be quite honest, most people on this forum is hardcore cricket fans and most of us love the simulation experience. If you say you bowl a team out in 80 - 120 overs, that is pretty accurate and parallel with real life. I don't think I have spend enough time bowling, but a few more edges with the new ball and some match awareness by the batsmen (fe: First innings bat to set a score, 4th day bat to set a target) would come close. I have always enjoy the only batting way as there has never been a cricket game where the developers got the AI right. If Big Ant can do that it would be wonderful, but I won't hold my breath as all of us on here are complaining about different things.[DOUBLEPOST=1415702579][/DOUBLEPOST]BTW. Test cricket or the longer format is suppose to be frustrating. That's why it last for 5 days. The team that frustrate the other the best usually wins.

 

[Valaskjalf]

To be quite honest, most people on this forum is hardcore cricket fans and most of us love the simulation experience. If you say you bowl a team out in 80 - 120 overs, that is pretty accurate and parallel with real life. I don't think I have spend enough time bowling, but a few more edges with the new ball and some match awareness by the batsmen (fe: First innings bat to set a score, 4th day bat to set a target) would come close. I have always enjoy the only batting way as there has never been a cricket game where the developers got the AI right. If Big Ant can do that it would be wonderful, but I won't hold my breath as all of us on here are complaining about different things.[DOUBLEPOST=1415702579][/DOUBLEPOST]BTW. Test cricket or the longer format is suppose to be frustrating. That's why it last for 5 days. The team that frustrate the other the best usually wins.

All fair points and I understand that test cricket is frustrating in real life, I think the issue is more to do, well for me anyway, the type of dismissals in Test and the type of shots played by the AI. I generally bowl them out around 100 overs as well, which is realistic, but many of those dismissals are simply due to the AI playing a knucklehead shot for no apparent reason. Smashed to Mid-Off / Mid-On is probably the most popular one...

The main gripe is that I rarely get edges....sure I get 2-3 per innings, but it is as though there's a disconnect between user input and the outcome of the dismissals. I can probably count on 3 fingers the times where Ive had the AI nick behind to a ball that would induce an edge. But most of the nicks happen on INswingers or trying to cut full deliveries. So it seems to predominantly happen by accident, or due to some collision between animation and user input. It's almost never due to good bowling, because good bowling they simply stonewall or smash or miss by half a foot.

 

[lastig]

All fair points and I understand that test cricket is frustrating in real life, I think the issue is more to do, well for me anyway, the type of dismissals in Test and the type of shots played by the AI. I generally bowl them out around 100 overs as well, which is realistic, but many of those dismissals are simply due to the AI playing a knucklehead shot for no apparent reason. Smashed to Mid-Off / Mid-On is probably the most popular one...

The main gripe is that I rarely get edges....sure I get 2-3 per innings, but it is as though there's a disconnect between user input and the outcome of the dismissals. I can probably count on 3 fingers the times where Ive had the AI nick behind to a ball that would induce an edge. But most of the nicks happen on INswingers or trying to cut full deliveries. So it seems to predominantly happen by accident, or due to some collision between animation and user input. It's almost never due to good bowling, because good bowling they simply stonewall or smash or miss by half a foot.

I totally agree with the points you are making. Don't get me wrong, test cricket is the truest form of the game and definitely my favourite, but as you say, if the AI got out to good deliveries one might feel that you did something right. As I stated earlier, I really hope that BA can get this right, but I do not know if it's possible?

 

[blockerdave]

L
Completely disagree, what makes you say it's awful? The experience of bowling is far from awful. Frustrating yeah but certainly not awful.

As I have repeated the bowling experience on amateur is pretty damn good, far better than any previous title. All that lets it down are the aerial shots, low run rate, although 2.5/2.75 an over I can deal with and the fact that batting is far too easy.

Now with pro and above, the run rate is slightly improved but the edges are far too rare How it plays apart from the aerial shots is not that bad. It's a challenge to get the opposition out in 3 sessions and despite what people sat you really can bowl to a set field. An innings for me usually takes between 80-120 overs to get the AI out and the wickets will generally be 3/4 edges, a couple bowled, an lbw and the rest caught playing aerial shots. Now that is far from broken.

Increase edges for the first 15/ 20 overs of the new ball and reduce the aerial shots and BigAnt won't be far from a very good bowling experience in my opinion.

I've just started bowling one internationals on veteran and it's a great experience, but batting wise it's far too hard for me. If you are good enough to bat at veteran level I highly recommend it.

The bowling experience (human to AI) is awful because it in no way replicates real life. There is no way to set up a batsman since each ball is completely independent of what went before. The batsman is going to middle or miss 99% of balls and the edges that come don't feel earned just as if the game is saying "ok, you can have one now as you've bowled 105 overs".

You can bowl to and execute a plan provided it's either a)bounce them out with guys on the hook and cut or b)pitch up and wait for them to hit mid-on. The ability to generate swing or spin has a negligible effect on the ability to take wickets, ditto pitch conditions.

Batting can be frustrating but that's usually down to the mechanism being difficult and requiring concentration, so I'm happy with that (less so when frustration is due to AI fields). Bowling is always frustrating because of the AI batsman's behaviour, and that's why I consider the bowling experience is awful. If I have to completely game the attributes and play on a specific level as you suggest, something is utterly broken and yes, awful.

There is a wonderful bowling mechanic here, much better than the place marker press button mechanic of previous games, but anyone who thinks previous games didn't give at least as good if not better outcome in terms of feeling you could execute a plan or exploit pitch conditions is deluded.

I have said repeatedly, from the very beginning, this is an excellent game spoiled significantly by a broken AI, from field sets to bowling changes to batting approach to batting intelligence - not a single element of the AI is close to the standard of the rest of the game. Not one bit of it.

FWIW - I just bowled on amateur, my all time associate team (me) vs all time West Indies (AI) and dismissed them for 72. I still consider that an awful experience because how can I have a meaningful game there? Also, I got one edge, the final wicket.

 

[cooks1st100]

There is no way to set up a batsman since each ball is completely independent of what went before.

I disagree, bowl short of a good length mixed with a few bouncers, then every 15 balls of so bowl a fullen. 3 times out of 4 the batsman will be caught out by this, an inswinging yorker bowled wide from the crease is deadly. You can do the opposite, good and full with a bouncer as the surprise ball. It shows that the AI can be set up.

You can bowl to and execute a plan provided it's either a)bounce them out with guys on the hook and cut or b)pitch up and wait for them to hit mid-on.

The shots to mid-on and mid-off are something that would be fixed by aerial shots being at a realistic level and needs to be sorted.

Again what you say about bowling to a plan is wrong, I have several different tactics and plans which I use to reasonable effect. The majority of my bowling is on a good length either angling or swinging the ball away from the right hander forcing the AI to hit to the offside. My field will only have 2 maybe 3 on the legside. Maybe this is why I get more edges than most.

The ability to generate swing or spin has a negligible effect on the ability to take wickets, ditto pitch conditions.

I agree to a point, Pitch conditions make a difference, not massive but it's there. I definitely noticed a fair difference between the first day and the third day bowling on a greentop. First day there was natural seam, third day, far less so.

anyone who thinks previous games didn't give at least as good if not better outcome in terms of feeling you could execute a plan or exploit pitch conditions is deluded.

I'm certainly not deluded and doubt there is a single person on this forum who has wasted more hours bowling on pretty much every game since BLC99. Big call I know, but I'd be f**king surprised man

I have said repeatedly, from the very beginning, this is an excellent game spoiled significantly by a broken AI, from field sets to bowling changes to batting approach to batting intelligence - not a single element of the AI is close to the standard of the rest of the game. Not one bit of it.

Yeah completely, the AI is nowhere near the rest of the game. It really annoys me that the AI bats exactly the same in one day as in longer formats.

I just bowled on amateur, my all time associate team (me) vs all time West Indies (AI) and dismissed them for 72. I still consider that an awful experience because how can I have a meaningful game there? Also, I got one edge, the final wicket.

That is a pretty s***e, how many did they get in the second innings?

As far as the edges go, this is why I tried the reduced offside attribute and it made a difference. Now you may call this gaming it I just call it trying to get the game toplay to the best of its ability. With IC10 I had to massively increase the batting atts and really reduce the bowling atts just so the AI could last more than 40 overs. I don't even have the time to explain what I went through with BLC99 and the EA series to try and get a good experience so to me "gaming it" aint a big deal.

The creators of players as fantastic as they are have generally been far too generous with the batting attributes, and by lowering these to what I felt were a more realistic amount has slightly improved my bowling experience.

Reduce offside attributes by a fair amount and bowl as I have mentioned and you should see an improvement if only slight and I'm not talking about amateur only btw.

As far as realism goes, it definitely represents the frustration of bowling pretty well I think. Over after over with little or no reward, well that's the life of a bowler, no wonder they're a grumpy bunch!!
.

 

[Ash1973]

I have said repeatedly, from the very beginning, this is an excellent game spoiled significantly by a broken AI, from field sets to bowling changes to batting approach to batting intelligence - not a single element of the AI is close to the standard of the rest of the game. Not one bit of it..

couldn't agree more i absolutely loved this game for the first month but after that the constant stupidity of the AI & general lack of atmosphere in the game,stopped me from playing it.
i'm just hoping that the next patch will sort some of these problems out,so i can get back to playing it.

 

[thefonzreturns]

couldn't agree more i absolutely loved this game for the first month but after that the constant stupidity of the AI & general lack of atmosphere in the game,stopped me from playing it.
i'm just hoping that the next patch will sort some of these problems out,so i can get back to playing it.

can't say i didn't warn you...

 

[SpitfiresKent]

can't say i didn't warn you...