England tour of West Indies 2015

[IceAgeComing]

drop trott (sadly), drop stokes (because he's not good enough with either bat or ball to play), and get selectors that actually play proper spinners on turning wickets - its the West Indies, literally all of the wickets are taken by spin

Its the boring conservative crap that we've come to know from England; assume that all games that you play will be in English conditions and don't actually change your team at all when you go abroad. I'd hope that this scares them into doing something: but I thought the Ashes whitewash, the World T20, the Sri Lanka series, that Lords test against India or the World Cup would do that but nothing has changed! I don't know who's idea it was to play two batting all-rounders and only three proper bowlers but whoever it was should probably be shot, because it doesn't work!

 

[Aislabie]

Out of interest, who would you like to see playing the first New Zealand Test?

I'd be looking for something like:

• Alastair Cook
• Adam Lyth / Nick Browne
• Gary Ballance
• Ian Bell
• Joe Root
• James Taylor / Alex Hales / Mark Cosgrove (pretty please)
• Jos Buttler
• Moeen Ali / Scott Borthwick / James Tredwell / me bowling offies / some spinner from somewhere (not Rashid)
• Chris Jordan / Liam Plunkett
• Stuart Broad / Mark Wood
• James Anderson

I'd agree that both Trott and Stokes have to go - they've been woefully out of place. I though Moeen's attitude with the bat, and being outperformed by Joe Root with the ball, also undermined his credentials as a Test all-rounder. Then we have Broad, who has looked pretty chronic most of the time because his body has had enough, and Chris Jordan.

It's quite possible that all these questions would have been brushed aside if the series scoreline had been 2-0 and not 1-1, but the West Indies weren't the only side who were "mediocre".

 

[IceAgeComing]

It would depend on the conditions - I think the reason that Moeen did well against India was because he was bowling well on not particularly favourable pitches and no one expected him to do as well as he did; and when we bowls for the first time in test cricket on proper turners he seemed to struggle

My team, although I'm not a big county buff bar listening on the radio when I'm bored and there's nothing else on:

Cook
Lyth/Hales
Ballance
Bell
Root
Taylor
Buttler
[insert spinner here]
Jordan/Plunkett depending on conditions
Broad
Anderson

Lyth should really get a go in the New Zealand series, wouldn't exactly be fair to take him away from any competitive cricket and give him no games only to drop him because another guy has loadsa Championship runs; although Hales is looking good. The middle order isn't changing a great deal, they've all done well. I think Taylor's a very good batsman and certainly is better than Stokes with the bat: Buttler looks like a good player. I like Jordan and think that he bowled much better in the last test than in the first two: although that's not saying much because he only got five overs in the first innings thanks to Jimmy; and Plunkett looked good last year... Spinner-wise: well Rashid seems to be the man that they like and I'd favour him or Borthwick automatically because I like Leg Spin way too much: although the latter didn't impress me a great deal in that last test of that Ashes and he seems like a player that should be batting higher than 8 - Tredwell is consistent but isn't very good... I can bowl left-arm spin, along with "Left Arm Medium", perhaps they'd take me on since everyone is shouting for a spinner and left armer

I think that you have to pick four bowlers exclusively on their bowling: if you go for a fifth option then a Stokes or Moeen can play and bat at 6/7, but you can't expect to play both of them and only three front-line bowlers: it hurts your ability to take wickets and just leads to your main bowlers getting overused. If we get a green top (rare in England now) then you could get away with four seamers and Moeen IMO; although you then have to start thinking of dropping a Taylor or someone to squeeze them in. I'm coming around to Woakes as a bowler as well since he was actually kinda half decent during the World Cup; although he's now injured so that makes thinking about him irrelevant.

 

[War]

The ghost of KP continues to haunt!

I was worried before this series that Windies could do this and my fears have come to pass. Let this be an early warning that the test team despite the wins vs a very poor travelling India team last summer is potentially just as bad as ODI/T20 teams and ENG could now be in for a real hiding from the world cup finalist this summer.

This defeat should sting more because this was a windies team without well known players out in IPL & Chanderpaul out of form, while this was basically ENGs best XI.

At this rate, once KP scores runs and ENG predictably keep losing he will feature some stage in the Ashes.

This series also revealed that vs NZ/AUS ENG will have hell balancing the team. Ali not stepping up was a troubling sign that just maybe despite his IND series heroics (which could have been an aberration) he may not truly be a spin-bowling all-rounder.

For windies, I have been saying every series since they won 2012 W-Cup they are no longer a poor team. If new coach Simmons can convince Bravo, his nephew out of of first-class retirement, Russell & Pollard playing more 4-day cricket & Narine (once his problems don't kill his career) that is solid team

Why are some suggesting Stokes should be dropped by the way?

 

[blockerdave]

Out of interest, who would you like to see playing the first New Zealand Test?

I'd be looking for something like:

• Alastair Cook
• Adam Lyth / Nick Browne
• Gary Ballance
• Ian Bell
• Joe Root
• James Taylor / Alex Hales / Mark Cosgrove (pretty please)
• Jos Buttler
• Moeen Ali / Scott Borthwick / James Tredwell / me bowling offies / some spinner from somewhere (not Rashid)
• Chris Jordan / Liam Plunkett
• Stuart Broad / Mark Wood
• James Anderson

I'd agree that both Trott and Stokes have to go - they've been woefully out of place. I though Moeen's attitude with the bat, and being outperformed by Joe Root with the ball, also undermined his credentials as a Test all-rounder. Then we have Broad, who has looked pretty chronic most of the time because his body has had enough, and Chris Jordan.

It's quite possible that all these questions would have been brushed aside if the series scoreline had been 2-0 and not 1-1, but the West Indies weren't the only side who were "mediocre".

Do you still have Cook as Captain because you think they won't axe him, or because you think he should stay as captain?

For me, his return to form with the bat keeps him in the XI, as captain he has to go.

--------

The selection of that XI was pathetic. Leave aside the obvious absence of a front-line spinner, why was Stokes in that team? I actually like Stokes but it's clear Cook doesn't rate/trust his bowling, and batting at 7 he's not in as a batter either - he was literally making up the numbers.

There are a lot of question marks... we need a new opener, we need a new number 4 (i'm sorry but Bell had one good innings in which he still got out at a terrible time that cost the team a bigger score and did nothing after, he has been doing that for too long and simply has to go), we need a consistent 6 (Moeen, Stokes and Buttler would all be too high at 6 in my book), a decent spinner (I actually think Moeen deserves more time, but batting 7 or 8), and genuine pace.

Come NZ, I'd be looking at:

Cook
Lyth
Ballance
Hales
Root (c) --- I'm keeping him at 5 because i'm not sure of making him 4 & captain at the same time, longer term he & Hales would swap
Taylor
Buttler
Moeen / Rashid
Jordan
Anderson
Mills

Potentially you might lose Hales or Taylor to keep Broad in and bolster the bowling, because that XI might be light on bowling though we're talking about May in England, I'd hope that'd be enough.
Would want a flexible batting order - lose early wickets and you might send in Root/Taylor before Hales, big opening stand and Hales goes in at 3.

[DOUBLEPOST=1430724308][/DOUBLEPOST]In Blackwood and Holder West Indies have two potentially wonderful players - I wonder if any Caribbean philanthropists might be persuaded to finance contracting them to the Board to keep them out of the grasping reaches of the IPL.

 

[dp458]

Mills has been poor for Sussex and he is a long way from Test Standard, they wont drop Bell, or Cook as a batsman, although I can see captaincy changing hands. Dont think Hales will be given a go, just yet
I'd be looking for something like:

• Alastair Cook
• Adam Lyth
• Gary Ballance
• Ian Bell
• Joe Root
• James Taylor / Moeen Ali
• Jos Buttler
• Chris Woakes
• Chris Jordan / Liam Plunkett
• Stuart Broad / Mark Wood
• James Anderson

Broad I feel has got better as the series has gone on. Taylor Plays at Lords/HEadingly/Trent Bridge ie the Seamers grounds, and Moeen comes in at Edgbaston and the OVal where the pitch will spin a bit more, Root has shown he can bowl if we need some part time spin. Moeen I fell was rushed back, he only bowled 1 overs for Worcs.
Woakes will be a handful in english conditions, is a better bowler than Stokes and is more than good enough to bat 8, Stokes has been poor this series just no tdone enough with eother bat or ball.
Id go for Plunkett over Jordon for the extra bit of hostility

 

[ParkedTheBus]

1. Briggs deserves to be in the contention for the team. Not sure about playing Borthwick, so Briggs and Tredwell are the only decent options out there for England:

Cook [C]
Lyth
Ballance
Bell
Root
Taylor
Buttler [WK]
Jordan
Briggs/ Tredwell
Wood/Broad
Anderson


2. Root can chip in with his part time offies, and while dropping Moeen makes the bowling a bit light, Taylor's batting is a bit too much to ignore. Wood deserves to play over Broad, who has been disappointing lately.

3. Looks like the Shiv-machine has finally slowed down after all these years. What an absolute legend.

 

[blockerdave]

Mills has been poor for Sussex and he is a long way from Test Standard, they wont drop Bell, or Cook as a batsman, although I can see captaincy changing hands. Dont think Hales will be given a go, just yet
I'd be looking for something like:

• Alastair Cook
• Adam Lyth
• Gary Ballance
• Ian Bell
• Joe Root
• James Taylor / Moeen Ali
• Jos Buttler
• Chris Woakes
• Chris Jordan / Liam Plunkett
• Stuart Broad / Mark Wood
• James Anderson

Broad I feel has got better as the series has gone on. Taylor Plays at Lords/HEadingly/Trent Bridge ie the Seamers grounds, and Moeen comes in at Edgbaston and the OVal where the pitch will spin a bit more, Root has shown he can bowl if we need some part time spin. Moeen I fell was rushed back, he only bowled 1 overs for Worcs.
Woakes will be a handful in english conditions, is a better bowler than Stokes and is more than good enough to bat 8, Stokes has been poor this series just no tdone enough with eother bat or ball.
Id go for Plunkett over Jordon for the extra bit of hostility

I think Jordan's slip fielding gets him in the side. If Mills isn't there maybe Plunkett for pace. Just struggling to find genuine pace.

The phrase re Woakes being good in English conditions sums up for me why he shouldn't be picked... So he gets a few wickets on helpful pitches people say you can't drop him now then he gets carted all over South Africa / UAE and we are back to square one. We've seen where 3 or 4 right arm 85ish mph gets us - nowhere. Anderson plays for as long as he is fit, Jordan in as a third seamer over Woakes/Stokes as there's not much between the 3 and he gives that slip catching brilliance. The 2nd seamer has to be rapid, and you only get a 4th in if he is a genuine all rounder who can bat 6.

 

[dp458]

I think Jordan's slip fielding gets him in the side. If Mills isn't there maybe Plunkett for pace. Just struggling to find genuine pace.

The phrase re Woakes being good in English conditions sums up for me why he shouldn't be picked... So he gets a few wickets on helpful pitches people say you can't drop him now then he gets carted all over South Africa / UAE and we are back to square one. We've seen where 3 or 4 right arm 85ish mph gets us - nowhere. Anderson plays for as long as he is fit, Jordan in as a third seamer over Woakes/Stokes as there's not much between the 3 and he gives that slip catching brilliance. The 2nd seamer has to be rapid, and you only get a 4th in if he is a genuine all rounder who can bat 6.

Isnt that exactly where we have been going wrong, but picking teams for the conditions we are in, also i disagree with the statement that Woakes will be carted elsewhere, in ODIS yes, but as a bear he is also very good in unhelpful conditions, he was the top bowler on the lions tours to Sri Lanka 18 moths ago, and was a surprisnigly good captain

Jordans slip fielding shouldnt get him in the team, PLus being a university spinner myself his positioning is all off, at slip.

Pace Wise Woakes was the quickest bowler at the WC and the Tri series, regularly over 90, he is the future opening bowler when Jimmy packs up.

Also I dont understand the need for just pure pace Mitch Johnson circa 2010 was rapido but its the control thats important, Mills, MEaker, Finn, etc... the rapid bowlers in the CC arent getting wickets there, how are they meant to get internationals out, Plunkett is the best bet, and with 4 seamers Jordan and Stokes dont fit in for me.

Stokes would bat 6 instead of Taylor in the UAE for example with 2 proper spinners replacing 2 seamers, but we dont have the spinners atm.


Plus the SA series is seam friendly conditions as well, only then do we go to the UAE, focus on the upcoming series first.

 

[dp458]

1. Briggs deserves to be in the contention for the team. Not sure about playing Borthwick, so Briggs and Tredwell are the only decent options out there for England:

Cook [C]
Lyth
Ballance
Bell
Root
Taylor
Buttler [WK]
Jordan
Briggs/ Tredwell
Wood/Broad
Anderson


2. Root can chip in with his part time offies, and while dropping Moeen makes the bowling a bit light, Taylor's batting is a bit too much to ignore. Wood deserves to play over Broad, who has been disappointing lately.

3. Looks like the Shiv-machine has finally slowed down after all these years. What an absolute legend.

Hales would be my next batsman off the rank, I dont think Cook keeps the captaincy after the debacle that was yesterday


Shiv was always going to slow down, i reckon OZ is his last series

Briggs nor Tredders are big spinners of the ball thats the issue, theyre not threatening, and with a 4 man attack they need to be wicket tackers, 5 man attack a holding spinner is fine ala Giles circa 2005

Borthwick just doesnt bowl now, turning himself into a promising no 3 up at Durham clearly trying the S.Smith transformation, but he wont get in as a batter, so he has to move counties to where he can bowl more

 

[blockerdave]

Isnt that exactly where we have been going wrong, but picking teams for the conditions.

I think where we've gone wrong is picking Bowlers who look good in England.

Woakes has certainly improved, I'll admit and long term he might indeed be an option, but I don't think he is good enough now. He wasn't regularly over 90 in the WC, he was high 80s occasionally touching 90 which is fine, but not much different to Jordan or indeed Stokes.

Jordan isn't in on catching alone, I don't see a lot of difference between Jordan, Stokes or Woakes and the catching clinches it for Jordan for me. You're possibly right though in the team I picked Woakes might be better in a side not packed with bowlers - but I don't see a lot in it.

Generally though we must stop picking 3 or 4 seamers all right arm 85ish - it is not good enough.

 

[dp458]

I think where we've gone wrong is picking Bowlers who look good in England.

Woakes has certainly improved, I'll admit and long term he might indeed be an option, but I don't think he is good enough now. He wasn't regularly over 90 in the WC, he was high 80s occasionally touching 90 which is fine, but not much different to Jordan or indeed Stokes.

Jordan isn't in on catching alone, I don't see a lot of difference between Jordan, Stokes or Woakes and the catching clinches it for Jordan for me. You're possibly right though in the team I picked Woakes might be better in a side not packed with bowlers - but I don't see a lot in it.

Generally though we must stop picking 3 or 4 seamers all right arm 85ish - it is not good enough.

I actually agree, but at home thats fine, its actually the best team we have right now, the fact ive seen Woakes first hand in the nets probably makes me a bit biased, Jordans catching probably gets him in ahead of Plunkett though thinking about it.
Its the away tests that weve struggled where we need to be more adventurous.

Pace isnt everything though look at Philander

Jordan needs to listen to the adivce from Beefy though re slip positioning(I dont understand how Tredders Root and Moeen have let this happen, Im so particular about my field placings, and this a few levels down from even First CLass cricket) and his run up, and then he will be a key player. He is arguably one of the first names on the ODI team sheet

 

[barmyarmy]

I want Root as captain but I'm sure making him captain for an Ashes series would be a great idea. Especially as we will probably lose 5-0.

 

[MUFC1987]

I think there's a lot of over-reacting going on in this thread. Batting wise, sure Trott looked out of place, but he's not an opener, so that's understandable, so sure, someone else should be picked for that role. Lyth/Robson etc. But let's not forget that we struggled in this Test due to a massive collapse in the second innings, and a similar one in the first innings, which only got saved by Cook and Moeen.

On spin bowling, Moeen Ali is just not a front line spinner. He's a second spinner. That's fine in seamer conditions, but he's not going to rip through teams, because he's just not quite good enough. But for me, this issue has been bubbling under the surface for a while. Our options are:

Ali - not a front line spinner
Rashid - plays County cricket with one of the better seam bowling attacks in the country, so does a similar role to Moeen
Borthwick - Batting all-rounder, very much a part time spinner
Tredwell - Doesn't even get a game for his County as the front line spinner

We picked Kerrigan a couple of years ago because he looked like the best prospect in the Country, yet he had one bad game and hasn't been seen since. We can't expect inexperienced bowlers to come into Test cricket and be World Class from the word go, that's the issue for me.

On the pace bowling, this call for pace is kinda surprising for me, when you consider that our best bowler is probably our slowest bowler in Anderson. Pace is all well and good, but I'd take ability over it personally.

Guys like Stokes and Ali deserve an opportunity to show that they can do. Swapping and changing all the time isn't doing anyone any favours. And that includes changing their roles from being the 5th bowling options to being one of the main 4. It's just not working. I think it's probably hard to pick them both in the same team, but that might be a sacrifice that we need to make.

Finally, on the West Indies, they played very well and as Cook said, Graves gave them their team talk for them, with his idiocy. We haven't beaten West Indies over there for 10 years though, which is when Harmison, Hoggard and Jones were ripping it up. So I don't see why this sudden outrage. It's not like we've just been rolled over by Zimbabwe at home. We have no right to win these series.

 

[bigred]

I definitely think there's been an overreaction on this thread. The West Indies played so well on day three in Barbados and deserved their victory. Why does everyone seem to be suggesting going back to 4 bowlers? Why do we need someone to bowl at 93mph who can't control it?

I've seen some suggested teams with Broad, Anderson, Mills and a batting spinner like Ali, Rashid or Borthwick. How is that going to help?