Maurice Holmes - English Murali

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The fact is, everyone moaning about the doosra are the teams and players who could never master it or have players that can't play the doosra. It's as simple as that.

I still remember Pakistan's tour to England ,when their spinners were quite ineffective, there was barely any discussion about the doosra or bowling ability of spinners or bowling actions by the likes of Bob Willis, Atherton (whose views are normally pretty good), Nick Knight, Botham, Gower and Hussain.

Turn the table, go to the UAE and get found out against superior bowling in those conditions and all of a sudden, actions, bowling, doosra, spinners were in the spotlight, there was more said about the legality of the doosra by Ajmal than credit given to Pakistan for beating England black and blue. It's a sad state of affairs.

Pretty much the reverse swing story, surely I've used this analogy before but when, for almost two decades Pakistani bowlers dominated the old ball with reverse swing, the English and the Australians couldn't shut up about how illegal reverse swing was...tables turned in the summer of 05, when the likes of Jones and Flintoff, who ironically learned reverse swing from Wasim and Waqar and all of a sudden reverse swing is an art. Fast forward 9 years and everyone talks about reverse swing as a normal part of cricket.

If War and the rest of the anti-doosra brigade can't see what's happening then maybe you all need to look into cricket history a little deeper or maybe you share the same prejudices as much of the English cricketing establishment/media.

 

[War]

there is evidence to suggest it can be bowled legally, most of the evidence comes from people that are experts in bio-mechanics and have written extensive papers about how the eye can be mistaken. it's just that this evidence is harder to come by because it's in scientific journals and not given the platform of an internationally famous ex-cricketer.

if Warne stands up and says something related to spin bowling and a guy called Dr. Aginsky contradicts it, even providing hard evidence, figures and facts, the media would still give far more weight and importance to Warne's views.

whilst I think the opinions of professional cricketers certainly counts, I wouldn't write off the opinion of someone that has played the game for 20 years at the highest level, the opinions of people that can offer more detailed scientific explanations also count as well.

it's a tricky issue as the arm straightening rule is quite unique in sport (the only thing remotely similar I can think of is in swimming where strokes are given different classifications and in certain races your movements have to conform to an agreed standard) and for all the scientific evidence provided it's arguable whether the rules of a sport, which are relatively arbitrary in nature, are required to take into account the results of extreme scientific scrutiny.

BUT, there is evidence.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I have read the evidence from the biomechanics people & its very complicated, I'd wager the majority of people on both sides of the "doosra" argument have not read it.

But we have long gone pass that anyway & I'm not even sure if the ICC even believes in its own 15 degree rule limit. Because they keep saying up a month ago that they are in the process of implementing "in game testing" of bowling actions, as we have discussed before.

That way whatever criteria they used behind closed to say the doosra is clean or which bowlers actions are deemed decent, will finally been open to general cricket public & only then will this matter be properly settled.

Cause we have a situation in the game right now where the majority (not just non asian countries) don't believe the doosra is legitimate & we can't have that for something that has changed the face of the game in recent years. Universal consensus is needed.

 

[War]

The fact is, everyone moaning about the doosra are the teams and players who could never master it or have players that can't play the doosra. It's as simple as that.

I still remember Pakistan's tour to England ,when their spinners were quite ineffective, there was barely any discussion about the doosra or bowling ability of spinners or bowling actions by the likes of Bob Willis, Atherton (whose views are normally pretty good), Nick Knight, Botham, Gower and Hussain.

Turn the table, go to the UAE and get found out against superior bowling in those conditions and all of a sudden, actions, bowling, doosra, spinners were in the spotlight, there was more said about the legality of the doosra by Ajmal than credit given to Pakistan for beating England black and blue. It's a sad state of affairs.

Pretty much the reverse swing story, surely I've used this analogy before but when, for almost two decades Pakistani bowlers dominated the old ball with reverse swing, the English and the Australians couldn't shut up about how illegal reverse swing was...tables turned in the summer of 05, when the likes of Jones and Flintoff, who ironically learned reverse swing from Wasim and Waqar and all of a sudden reverse swing is an art. Fast forward 9 years and everyone talks about reverse swing as a normal part of cricket.

If War and the rest of the anti-doosra brigade can't see what's happening then maybe you all need to look into cricket history a little deeper or maybe you share the same prejudices as much of the English cricketing establishment/media.

Already spoke about the specifics of the doosra above, so won't repeat myself. However you historical comparison with the doosra situation with the history of reverse-swing is totally off.

While its very possible the old time bowlers like Larwood, Lindwall, Tyson, Trueman, Snow, Marshall, Holding, Procter, Charlie Griffith, Jeff Thomson, Lillee may have bowled reverse-swing unconsciously due to their bowling actions - it is well know that reverse swing was mastered as an art by Sarfraz Nawaz during his famous spell vs AUS @ Melbourne 1979. From then on Imran & Wasim bowled it throughout the 80s & later Waqar, Aaquib Javed, Akhtar in the 90s and the world did not complain.

That situation during the 92 ENG tour was just the English media for once accusing the PAK wrongly of cheating - even though it has been proven in years since that that PAK players can/will bend the law the disrepute the game.

ENG also accepted reverse-swing long before the 2005 ashes, 2005 Ashes is just such a famous series worldwide, that everyone remembers & saw how well Jones/Flintoff reverse swung the ball.

Darren Gough was a expert reverse swing bowler from the inception of his career. During ENG famous 2000/01 series wins @ home to Windies & in Pakistan & Sri Lanka - Gough & Craig White was reverse swinging the ball is a massive way.

 

[cricket_icon]

Already spoke about the specifics of the doosra above, so won't repeat myself. However you historical comparison with the doosra situation with the history of reverse-swing is totally off.

While its very possible the old time bowlers like Larwood, Lindwall, Tyson, Trueman, Snow, Marshall, Holding, Procter, Charlie Griffith, Jeff Thomson, Lillee may have bowled reverse-swing unconsciously due to their bowling actions - it is well know that reverse swing was mastered as an art by Sarfraz Nawaz during his famous spell vs AUS @ Melbourne 1979. From then on Imran & Wasim bowled it throughout the 80s & later Waqar, Aaquib Javed, Akhtar in the 90s and the world did not complain.

That situation during the 92 ENG tour was just the English media for once accusing the PAK wrongly of cheating - even though it has been proven in years since that that PAK players can/will bend the law the disrepute the game.

ENG also accepted reverse-swing long before the 2005 ashes, 2005 Ashes is just such a famous series worldwide, that everyone remembers & saw how well Jones/Flintoff reverse swung the ball.

Darren Gough was a expert reverse swing bowler from the inception of his career. During ENG famous 2000/01 series wins @ home to Windies & in Pakistan & Sri Lanka - Gough & Craig White was reverse swinging the ball is a massive way.

You have acted just as I expected you to. England have cheated far more in the realm of reverse swing than Pakistan and they've been caught doing it too lol I could go on about ATherton or gummy sweets and spit etc but I won't because you know it well enough plus this argument has been done to death.

When certain teams and their fans can't accept something, they point fingers and call cheating. Look at how the Aussies have back tracked and hired murali

The saddest part is I'm an England fan but I can appreciate the genius of other players, no matter their skin, nationality or religion.

 

[War]

You have acted just as I expected you to. England have cheated far more in the realm of reverse swing than Pakistan and they've been caught doing it too lol I could go on about ATherton or gummy sweets and spit etc but I won't because you know it well enough plus this argument has been done to death.

When certain teams and their fans can't accept something, they point fingers and call cheating. Look at how the Aussies have back tracked and hired murali

The saddest part is I'm an England fan but I can appreciate the genius of other players, no matter their skin, nationality or religion.

What does the Atherton incident or the Priorr gummy sweets stuff have anything to do with what i said before? Ha you seem to be creating discussion and debating it with yourself.

And also i don't know how you interpret AUS hiring Murali as a spin consultant, but if you think that's a inclination that AUS cricket fraternity for example will be suddenly teaching bowlers to bowl the doosra with suspect looking action - you will be in for a surprise.

AUS are just being pragmatic, given they have to face Ajmal in a few months & are using the best mystery bowler in history to learn a few tricks on how the batsman can counter Ajmal. Nothing more.