Once and For All Hawk Eye Cannot Accurately 'Predict'

Again this has to go to BCCI/India instead of looking to improve a faulty system, the one team that
is saying the world is not square will always get ridiculed.

Exactly, long before the Ashes fiasco last year, BCCI said Hot Spot doesn't work and is inaccurate. It said after BCCI tried it on the last Eng Tour. It refused to use it after that.

Naturally it got ridiculed, and then last year's Ashes happened, and Hot Spot messed up so big, that for a while it was kicked out as part of DRS, and brought back only to be used with Real Time Snicko. BCCI was right about it years earlier.

So just because someone disagrees with the norm, is no reason to ridicule them, and assume their reservations are ridiculous. If BCCI says, DRS doesn't work, then they have their reasons.
 
This is the test that hawkeye prediction patch did using a ball machine, that's the accuracy that is said when talk about, for heavens sake who knows how inaccurate it is in real conditions.

A detailed analysis of HawkEYE technology, cricket is in the middle of the report have copied a few excerpts here, but highly recommend checking it out to get the whole picture.

http://www2.geog.ucl.ac.uk/~mdisney/teaching/1006/papers/collins_hawkeye.pdf

You cannot be serious! Public understanding of technology with special reference to “Hawk-Eye”

There is a danger that Hawk-Eye as used could inadvertently cause naïve
viewers to overestimate the ability of technological devices to resolve disagreement among humans because measurement errors are not made salient.
For example, virtual reconstructions can easily be taken to show “exactly what
really happened.” Suggestions are made for how confidence levels might be
measured and represented and “health warnings” attached to reconstructions. A
general principle for the use of sports decision aids is put forward. A set of open
questions about Hawk-Eye is presented which, if answered, could help inform
discussions of its use and accuracy.

For a number of years after the introduction of Hawk-Eye, cricket commentators would simply remark on
what Hawk-Eye showed on the screen, giving the impression, perhaps inadvertently, that
the virtual reality represented exactly what would actually have happened had the pad not
been struck. This is where our analysis of Hawk-Eye begins.

A cricket ball is not uniformly spherical. Around its “equator” it has a raised seam and
the two “hemispheres” become more asymmetrical as the game goes on. The trajectory of the
ball after it hits the ground can vary enormously. The bounce depends on the speed, the hardness and texture of the ball—which changes during the game, the state of the ground at the
exact point of the bounce, the spin on the ball and the position of the seam. The “swing”—
which is the aerodynamically induced curve in the flight of the ball, which can be in any
plane—depends on the ball’s speed, its spin, its state, its orientation, the orientation of the
seam and the state of the atmosphere. As a result, what happens to the ball after it bounces is
not going to be fully predictable from its pre-bounce trajectory so that, as far as we can see,
Hawk-Eye has to estimate the post-bounce trajectory largely or entirely from the post-bounce
behavior of the ball {caveat 3} for which it can gather data between the bounce and impact
on the pad. This certainly seems to be the implication of the claim made by Paul Hawkins,
the Director of Hawk-Eye Innovations, in response to a criticism of Dennis Lillee, the
Australian fast bowler:

“… Hawk-Eye simply observes and then calculates the actual trajectory of the ball.
Whether the cause of this trajectory was due to atmospheric conditions, the wicket, or the
ball hitting the seam is irrelevant from a Hawk-Eye perspective. Hawk-Eye just tracks
what happened—it does not try to predict nor to answer why it happened.”
So, if the ball rears up unexpectedly after hitting the seam or a crack on the pitch, HawkEye will track the trajectory off the pitch to predict the future course of the ball.
Similarly, the tracking system will come into play if the ball shoots along the ground after
hitting a dry spot on the pitch.

Our concern in analysing what Hawk-Eye can do is to understand more fully what it means to
“track” and “predict” the path of the ball. Predictions are extrapolations and the accuracy of
these extrapolations is limited by, among other things, the quality of the data. No measurement
is ever exact. Heisenberg established this as a deep principle of physics with the “uncertainty
principle,” but here we are talking of macroscopic measuring processes such as are discussed
by, say Thomas Kuhn in his 1961 paper on measurement and, of course, by physicists and most
other scientists as a matter of ordinary fact in their day-to-day work. As a result, it is normal
in science to associate a measurement with an estimate of its potential error.
A decision is not a measurement. A decision is binary like the “guilty/not guilty” decision of an English jury; in cricket the batsman is either “OUT” or “NOT OUT.” The process
of what we will call “digitization” is used to turn inexact measurements into discrete decisions. In most sports, the referees or umpires are the people who do the digitization and
what we are discussing here could be described as technical aids to digitization. The bails
in cricket are one such aid to digitization. As discussed above, it can sometimes be difficult
to tell whether the ball has touched the wicket or not and the falling of a bail converts this
uncertainty into one of two discrete possibilities which have merely to be “read off” by the
umpire.


by paul hawkins
… Hawk-Eye has shown that balls pitched on roughly the same area on the wicket have
passed the stumps at widely varying heights. And in tests conducted, thousands of deliveries were bowled from a bowling machine and filmed by Hawk-Eye. The camera feeds
were cut about two metres from the stumps, approximately the point where the batsman
would normally intercept the ball. When the ball hit the wicket, Hawk-Eye was able to
determine, to within about 5 mm, the point of impact.
… “Hawk-Eye requires between 1 to 2 feet of travel after the ball has pitched to be able
to accurately track the ball out of the bounce (this is significantly less than an umpire
requires). In instances when this does not happen, a Hawk-Eye replay is not offered to
TV.” (18 December 2003)
19
… in most cases Hawk-Eye’s output is accurate to within five millimetres in predicting
the path of the ball. The accuracy levels are highest when the ball has traveled a fair distance after pitching, but even when the point of contact is very close to the pitch of the
ball, the accuracy levels are still within 20mm


Sport has changed as a result of television replays whether one likes it or not. For
example, at least some television viewers find that soccer is being spoiled for them by the
number of blatantly incorrect refereeing decisions visible on television replays. Sports decision aids, including television replays (as in rugby union), have a valuable role to play in
undoing some of this damage. But the exact way all these things are used depends on a prior
302 Public Understanding of Science 17(3)
understanding of the relationship between what these devices can do and the way normal
human judgment works. Automated sports decision aids, if their capabilities were presented
in a transparent way, could add still more to the enjoyment of sport and, in addition, to a better
public understanding of the limits and possibilities of technology. If the Automated Decision
Principle were followed, and with the increasing speed of computation potentially making
automated decision devices more accurate and more capable of analysing and presenting, in
real time, the magnitude of uncertainty associated with any reconstruction, the future for the
technology as an aid to human judgment, seems bright.
 
“Hawk-Eye requires between 1 to 2 feet of travel after the ball has pitched to be able
to accurately track the ball out of the bounce

One or Two feet of travel after pitching required for tracking the ball (forget predicting, just to track), basically puts into question the use of Hawk Eye for any ball pitched in the full length area.

This really puts some rather serious questions on the accuracy of Hawk Eye, for accurate tracking, 'predicting' is a whole different level of issue.
 
ya in tennis especially french grandslam i think they prefer the clay courts which have marks were the ball has hit for tracking rather than using hawkeye and there have been issues with just tracking system of hawkeye in tennis. thats with a circular ball with less weight, a cricket ball is much unique with the seam in the middle as well as weight distribution in the halves and swing based on shine of the ball varies a great deal as the ball ages, all of which im not sure hawkeye can account for accurately as it is proclaimed. Its bummer that most people accept anything without understanding it or questioning it and just go along with the computer says so attitude nowadays.
 
I rather trust hawkeye then the umpire. Umpire is more likely to fail. Hawkeye is 95% accurate when the equipment is properly positioned. The article you are reference is 6 years old Hawkeye would have improved since then as well...
 
95% based on what ? Bowling machine and in indoor conditions... and said so by the developer of the technology.

Why are people so defensive of questions about the technology they just want something to be right...using hawkeye itself is not a good reference point for accuracy of itself.

How do you know it has improved are the underlying algorithm has changed? the videos is the first page are pretty recent and are dodgy as hell as they were 6 years before.

Umpire is more likely to miss inputs, feed him the same input as the hawkeye he will deliver you correct results than haweye, all im saying is use it as tool not as a judge which it is not.[DOUBLEPOST=1410260462][/DOUBLEPOST]
hmmm Bucknor or hawkeye?
I'll take hawkeye.

There is no need for ultimatum here, its not umpire or hawkeye discussion, its more of best of the both, get the data collection path of the technology and use the umpire to judge it who is much better than any prediction algorithm used.

lets not blindly believe everything shown virtually, take the good parts it offers and rid of the dodgy parts were technology is clearly not good enough or going to be for some more time to predict or judge anything properly.
 
Last edited:
lol bucknor used to be good at the start, the umpire in the vid is horrible, like i said the problem with umpires getting wrong decisions is always lack of input than not being able to predict or judge how the ball trajectory. hawkeye is the inverse it will rarely get the traveled path wrong but prediction is extremely dodgy at best, just use the first part of hawkeye and the judgement part of the umpire.

Again this is not anti DRS, but understanding it for what it is and getting a better system that does not affect the game balance.
 
I've no idea where you're getting the info that hawkeye is "dodgy at best", though. At best it's a 5mm tolerance, which is far from dodgy.

And it's not like verification is anything other than dead simple. You test on an empty net and see how close the predictions are to the result. If the stated tolerance is correct then it's deffo more accurate than the human eye. If the tolerance isn't correct then either the tech guys and all the rest of the ICC are incompetent or there is a huge conspiracy, and there's no clear reason why everyone but India would prefer DRM if they knew it was shitty.

Ideally we'd have some independent verification of the accuracy, but I'm not sure this isn't the case anyway. And if the proof is sufficiently rigorous it doesn't necessarily need to be independent. You just have to evidence the accuracy of your measurements and calculations. The laws of physics are pretty much fixed, even on Indian batting wickets.
 
there's no clear reason why everyone but India would prefer DRM if they knew it was shitty.

The laws of physics are pretty much fixed, even on Indian batting wickets.

First thing i request when we discuss this topic is forget bcci, forget im an indian, this is just an discussion on hawkeye's usefulness and how it can be better, not whether india should use DRS or not.


I've no idea where you're getting the info that hawkeye is "dodgy at best", though. At best it's a 5mm tolerance, which is far from dodgy.
All prediction algorithm are dodgy, The first page videos dont show 5mm tollerance does it.

The laws of physics are pretty much fixed, even on Indian batting wickets.
Not really though that would be topic for another day, for now its not the formula used but the inputs that are going to keep changing through at the match and at varying degrees, it has to know hen to factor the imputs and when not toand i really doubt hawkeye has the ability to pick the bounce of pitch with any sort of accuracy after that video in first page.Its not going to know what ball the bowler bowled, thank god, warne is not here now.


You test on an empty net and see how close the predictions are to the result.
Nets and real match scenarios are totally different.Again a human is not the best data collector, so in a limited situation like nets the hawkeye will win over human,In a match situation were a lot more elements are present at play. human are best at making judgement far better than computer can with the present processing power, when presented with the same amount of data.


Again this topic is to improve hawkeye not to remove it, just get rid of the prediction system its solid.
 
Nets and real match scenarios are totally different.

Nope, not in this context they're not.

You've stated that you accept the hawkeye ball tracking is accurate, so it's dead simple : they test the predication against the tracking data in situations where there is no batsman. The laws of physics do not suddenly change in a match situation. Either the tracking data is accurate and it verifies the predictions, or hawkeye is fundamentally inaccurate full stop.

The fact that there are a few freaky looking results out of literally hundreds of thousands of recorded deliveries doesn't really prove anything, although obviously they are causes for concern.

Basically your argument is that there are some deliveries that look wrong to your naked eye vs hawkeye data, ergo the exhaustive scientific analysis of hawkeye data must be wrong.

While it might be that there is some fundamental flaw in some aspect of the hawkeye predictions, without evidence that it's consistently wrong the evidence from the testing process of the ICC, the LTA and the various other sports bodies who have accepted the tolerance and accuracy data as being sufficient for the highest level of sport must necessarily trump the evidence of a bunch of people saying "I think it looks wrong sometimes" from their armchairs.

I'm all for a rigorous testing process but as far as I'm aware there is one, and hawkeye, even if less than perfect, can be relied upon to a greater degree than the naked eye of any human observer.
 
Why are people so defensive of questions about the technology they just want something to be right...using hawkeye itself is not a good reference point for accuracy of itself.
Because other people make polemic arguments about it. We're not really talking about whether Hawkeye can predict the path of a ball, we're comparing ball-tracking technology to what people think would happen. That's a bad experiment if ever there was one. If people weren't wrong about the trajectory of the ball, cricket wouldn't even be cricket.
 
You've stated that you accept the hawkeye ball tracking is accurate, so it's dead simple : they test the predication against the tracking data in situations where there is no batsman


I haven't accepted tracking is accurate, but is better than prediction, it cant track anything that hasn't travelled 2 feet, so its going to have errors for full balls or like you mentioned as not necessary , a batsman in there makes a huge differnce with varying strides and getting to the pitch of the ball and predicting from there rather than without.

The camera feeds
were cut about two metres from the stumps, approximately the point where the batsman
this is not standard.

Its pretty clear that it cant predict properly whenever batsman get a stride in or when its full.

ergo the exhaustive scientific analysis of hawkeye data must be wrong.

Its not in transparent domain.SO till that i will believe what i see, rather than some dude in the TV saying with did this that.


The fact that there are a few freaky looking results out of literally hundreds of thousands of recorded deliveries doesn't really prove anything, although obviously they are causes for concern.

The number of LBW shouts would be much lesser and the number of blatant obvious howlers is going to a much lesser sample, to know how error prone it actually is.

If it is actually such a perfect model why cant it give out its results in public domain as well as add accuracy measure to the the visualization or do away with the whole prediction.
 
Well basically you're just making stuff up so there's not a lot I can say about it.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top