Is Indian Cricket in A Crisis

[PokerAce]

World in Sport | India Cricket Loves a Crisis

One of the most sane articles I have read on the so called overseas 'crisis'

 

[Satan666]

There is one misleading part in the article, Ganguly wins came against a relative strong Zim side. I agree that MSD is being used as the scapegoat, give the captaincy to Pujara for the West Indies series and you are more or less handing West Indies their first test series win on Indian soil in decades. I think Dhoni should be relinquished of the ODI captaincy give it to Kohli, Dhoni will still be in the final eleven to help Kohli settle in, the Indian ODI lineup is strong enough to withstand this shakeup. Dhoni will have less responsibility and Kohli when given the test captaincy will fit in nice.

The manner in which the batting has collapsed in the last two tests certainly warrants heads to roll. I am not saying that India is in a crisis but they are certainly at their lowest, in my time this is the worst performance I have seen from an Indian lineup, specifically dealing with both tests. The bowling has always been a problem for decades but some young guys are coming through and making an impact I will bring in Zaheer to stenghten the bowling stocks he is a proven experienced cricketer, a genuine spinner must be persisted with and I would give Mishra the nod at present he is one of the brightest prospects the world over in legspin bowling, the Ashwins and Jadejas must be discarded with. Pujara and Dhawan must be dropped from the squad, Pujara has a flawed technique that needs considerable work on, he has the right temperament for test cricket if he is managed correctly he can do wonders but at the moment he is not up to standard, Sehwag must return and Mayank Agarwal be given a run.

What we need to realise is that there is no overnight easy fix to this 'crisis'. Yes the Indians had a marvelous batting line up and a good bowling unit that won them games all over the world and at home during the late 2000's but that was a short period only. Lets look at the win percentage for all the test teams from ever since they played their first test to August 2014:

Australia - 46%
SA-36%
ENG-35%
WI-32%
PAK-31%
SL-30%
IND-25%
ZIM-11%
BANG-5%

(credits: All teams test match win-loss-draw summary. -> Its Only Cricket.)

So basically Australia has been the most successful team ever, then there is a cluster of teams in the 30% range and then comes India at number 6 within the 20% range. So India have always been a weak team.

The IPL does not help the situation at all I can see nothing positive for test cricket from a T20 league so people are justified in blaming the IPL for contributing to the woes of the Indian team at present. The IPL was introduced in 2008 by that time India had a powerful team with settled batsmen like Sehwag, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly, Dravid and newcomer Gambhir they had a rampant Ishant Sharma in Australia, a world class leftarmer in Zaheer Khan and two of the best spin bowlers of all time in Harbhajan and Kumble (who retired that year). Then this team was ranked number 1 test side (under a faulty ranking system) till about 2011 following the disastrous series against England in 2011 in which they lost 4-0 but they played some good test cricket in between. I think the IPL caused this great team to drop in performance and attitude, in these years the younger guys coming through only cared about T20 cricket to make the quick bucks and acclaim stardom, is it coincidental that within a couple of years India have lost their footing so bad in test cricket? Also we had some senior like guys leaving the team like the Dravids, its a known fact that Laxman was more or less forced into retirement and Sachin while playing poorly in his last couple of years was not dropped sort of encouraging the other guys to keep playing poorly and your place is safe. I think the IPL though is the main factor for the downfall of the test team, guys dont want to sweat for five days, dont want to concentrate at their batting for small money anymore when they can slog it out and get a high paying contract when the IPL comes around again.

So to conclude India are going deeper into the doldrums of test cricket, guys like Kohli dont seem interested in this format and the BCCI is doing absolutely nothing to address the situation. Possibly if the fans think to themselves that the team is in a crisis they can protest, make their voices heard and force the BCCI into acting, or we as fans can sit back not seeing the severity of the situation pass it off enjoy a mauling of West Indies in the next couple of months, and its business as usual.

 

[PokerAce]

@Untouchables666 That was a long post. I will try and address what I can remember.

First, even at their strongest Zimbabwe have been well off the pace. One cannot though deny that they have always been a top fielding side, and produced some very good players, the Flower brother (Andy more than Grant), Sreak and Strang were quite a bowling pair, and Campbell and Johnson on their day were a handful.

Indian cricket is not really at its lowest, its not even as low as the 2011 tour to be honest. Its one thing to have a bunch of mostly new guys struggle another entirely to have a lot as experienced as the last one was struggle. First test tour of England for the entire sqaud, except MS Dhoni and Ishant (who both did well amidst the ruins, so that shows experience helps and that augurs well for future tours). If you take Ishant out, the five other fast bowlers on the tour had played a total of just 17 tests among them.

Now that I think about it, with this kind of inexperience both in batting and bowling the expectations were too high. This tour is nothing but a learning curve, and the 1 win therefore is even more commendable. The reaction has been too harsh and I am basically cool with this series. Yes it was a very poor one, but in light of this inexperience the reaction has been too over the top. Sure the wheels came off towards the end, as it was just too long a tour, but even so the reaction has been too harsh.

Compare with the past tour, 3-1 beats 4-0 anyday. Also on the last tour the experienced side had scored 300 just once and that too exactly 300 in the last test. This batting unit even with all its failings in the final two tests fares better overall. So its not even as low as the 2011 tour, let alone lowest ever. When you take a side as inexperienced in the English conditions as this one, anything is a positive, because you cannot realistically expect wins. That it was not a 5-0 is a positive in itself, and that India got a win, is a huge bonus. In hindsight the negativity is a bit over the top.

I know the next series is WI, but regardless of who it would have been, there would have been no doubts about India being the favorites. Even after the lowest point of 2011 India went ahead and won 4 of the next 5 home test matches. So I am quite looking forward to the next series as its all part of the learning curve.

Also your conclusion off that stat you showed of over all wins to conclude India always being a weak side, is incorrect. You are focusing on just one aspect win %. If you look at loss% on that page, even with the handicap India had from 1932-1970s, Ind as the 4th least loss %. Only Aus, Eng and Pak have lost fewer matches than Ind in terms of %. That alone says all you need to know about India being a 'weak side' or not. India even though not winning a lot, were not losing too many either. India hve 42% draws that show India were regularly competing on equal footing, which again kinda disputes the 'weak side' claim.

Also contrary to what you say no good player has an attitude of I will only play IPL. Sure there are those who are not good enough, and as I say for the have been and never will be players IPL is a big deal. However trust me, no player who is in the top 5% of talent pool of India wants to only play IPL. There are many misconceptions about IPL outside India and this is one of them. Not one player who has the potential to play test cricket, is happy to just be playing IPL. Test cricket in India is still the level all good players want to be at.

Also the IPL had nothing to do with India being test #1, or winning the World Cup, or winning the Champions Trophy last year and it has nothing to do with what happened on this tour.

I don't know what you mean by Kohli not being interested in test cricket suddenly because of IPL. Kohli has been playing IPL for long, and even so just 6 months ago he was facing Steyn and Co in SA and scoring runs freely. I remember he got a 100 and a 96 in the first test and later against the moving ball in NZ got another unbeaten ton. 6 months and one poor series later he doesn't want to play test cricket, I mean come on even you know that is just utter over-reaction. If anything this is his First poor run in his career, and its because he suddenly said he doesn't want to play test cricket ?!

So India are not actually in any kind of doldrums at all. 3 test results don't send anyone in doldrums any more than they send anyone to any kind of heights. This side will be better from this tour, its just a good learning experience, and also came along with a win, so thats a bonus. WI will come around and this series will be forgotten in 2 months times. The experience will help later when the tours come around again.

 

[ethybubs]

(credits: All teams test match win-loss-draw summary. -> Its Only Cricket.)

I just added up the overall no. of tests in history, using this list a a resource, and I got 4273. Which means either: at least one test score from a country has been left out or two countries played half a test. Not to mention the fact that it claims Sri Lanka have lost 782 of their 233 tests.

 

[PokerAce]

Not to mention the fact that it claims Sri Lanka have lost 782 of their 233 tests.

My reactions as I read this.



I had not noticed this. Thx.

 

[Samuels]

It is not that India have been doing bad at England only. In fact, India have always been under par outside home barring the years when Tendulkar, Dravid and Co. were at their prime.

Let me add some authentic numbers to it.

India's overall overseas test record:

Matches|Won|Draw|Lost
239|38|98|103

India's overseas test record in last 5 years:

Matches|Won|Draw|Lost
28|6|7|15

1st January 2000 - 31st December 2009

Matches|Won|Draw|Lost
56|19|18|19

This does not mean that Dhoni has an excuse. He has a far better team than India ever had before 2000s (1983 team included). On most occasions he either fields a 7-2 field or keeps the long on and long off back which is not only a sign of defensive captaincy but lack of ability to learn that those decisions that work wonders on the dustbowls back in India will not apply on the hard/green pitches overseas.

 

[Deleted member 9102]

The India side was inexperienced, but so were a lot of the England side - Robson, Ballance, Buttler, Stokes, Woakes, Jordan, Ali, Plunkett... I don't think 'inexperience' is a valid excuse for India.

 

[PokerAce]

@Samuels Excellent point and that is what I have been saying all along.

As a captain the one failing Dhoni has is lack of away wins. Apart from this he ticks all the boxes. India have been more dominant then ever in home tests 70% wins under Dhoni (21 in 30). Second best is 47% wins under Ganguly at home, and look at the team Ganguly had ! Thumped Australia 4-0 last year, are presently on a 6 match winning run at home which is 2nd best ever winning home streak for India. Dhoni has in one run won all major ICC Events. Asia Cup, World Cup and Champions Trophy. That shows an amazing consistency and dominance.

Yes Dhoni is not winning away, but no one has won before him either. India have always struggled overseas. Lets not also forget that Dhoni has no tests as captain against Zim or Bangladesh away, where 54% of Ganguly's away wins have come.

However apart from not being able to do this one thing, Dhoni has done a lot of what others before him couldn't do, like he has made India more consistant than ever at home, has won all ICC events in one run. WC then CT. This shows good consitency of dominance in ODIs. Only Australia I think have achieved this in the past.

So why are we juding Dhoni on the one thing he has failed to do, and ignoring all the other wonderful things he has done, not even half of which any present day captain can claim to have done.[DOUBLEPOST=1408540201][/DOUBLEPOST]

The India side was inexperienced, but so were a lot of the England side - Robson, Ballance, Buttler, Stokes, Woakes, Jordan, Ali, Plunkett... I don't think 'inexperience' is a valid excuse for India.

Yeah, but the conditions were definitely helping Anderson, and we all know he can do when the ball swings. He was the big difference. For the entire Ind Squad this was the first ever test tour to Eng (except MSD and Ishat)

Also Root and Ballance are going to play cricket for the next 15 years easily. Both super batsmen. Root is better than Ballance, or more fun to watch, but both are going to be super for many years to come.

 

[Satan666]

@Untouchables666 That was a long post. I will try and address what I can remember.

I will try my best in response not to make it a tit for tat one. We're not here to debate all points in every post only but also work on the ones we agree on, giving new ideas and directions to an opinion of fellow members.

First, even at their strongest Zimbabwe have been well off the pace. One cannot though deny that they have always been a top fielding side, and produced some very good players, the Flower brother (Andy more than Grant), Sreak and Strang were quite a bowling pair, and Campbell and Johnson on their day were a handful.

All I am saying is that that Zim team were no pushovers as the author of the article is making it out to be. The way he makes me feel is that the past Zim team can be compared on equal terms with this one, which is atrocious at the very least.

Indian cricket is not really at its lowest, its not even as low as the 2011 tour to be honest. Its one thing to have a bunch of mostly new guys struggle another entirely to have a lot as experienced as the last one was struggle. First test tour of England for the entire sqaud, except MS Dhoni and Ishant (who both did well amidst the ruins, so that shows experience helps and that augurs well for future tours). If you take Ishant out, the five other fast bowlers on the tour had played a total of just 17 tests among them.

I agree the team is a pretty inexperienced one in the batting lineup but again India is to be blamed for that, this is why in my post above I alluded to the reintroduction of Sehwag and Zaheer into the setup to bolster the team with their extensive experience, Gambhir's should also stay there. Mathematically 3-1 is better than 4-0, more attractive to the eyes aint it?
Have a read of this article and tell me if you disagree with it also:

Post-Lord's, India's numbers weaker than in 2011 | Cricket News | England v India | ESPN Cricinfo

Bear in my mind I have posted with most specifics on the last two tests in my post above.

Now that I think about it, with this kind of inexperience both in batting and bowling the expectations were too high. This tour is nothing but a learning curve, and the 1 win therefore is even more commendable. The reaction has been too harsh and I am basically cool with this series. Yes it was a very poor one, but in light of this inexperience the reaction has been too over the top. Sure the wheels came off towards the end, as it was just too long a tour, but even so the reaction has been too harsh.

Compare with the past tour, 3-1 beats 4-0 anyday. Also on the last tour the experienced side had scored 300 just once and that too exactly 300 in the last test. This batting unit even with all its failings in the final two tests fares better overall. So its not even as low as the 2011 tour, let alone lowest ever. When you take a side as inexperienced in the English conditions as this one, anything is a positive, because you cannot realistically expect wins. That it was not a 5-0 is a positive in itself, and that India got a win, is a huge bonus. In hindsight the negativity is a bit over the top.

A long test series like this is good for cricket fans and players. Fitness is tested along with skills. Sadly India played alot of cricket leading up to the this tour and they are tired. A 5 test series should also have practice games in it like the older days, all this having work against India.

 

[Satan666]

I just added up the overall no. of tests in history, using this list a a resource, and I got 4273. Which means either: at least one test score from a country has been left out or two countries played half a test. Not to mention the fact that it claims Sri Lanka have lost 782 of their 233 tests.

Didnt read out the table in its entirety. Good thig I always post links other than cricnfo from where the stats are generated. Thank you Bubba!

 

[PokerAce]

I will try my best in response not to make it a tit for tat one. We're not here to debate all points in every post only but also work on the ones we agree on, giving new ideas and directions to an opinion of fellow members.

All I am saying is that that Zim team were no pushovers as the author of the article is making it out to be. The way he makes me feel is that the past Zim team can be compared on equal terms with this one, which is atrocious at the very least.

I agree the team is a pretty inexperienced one in the batting lineup but again India is to be blamed for that, this is why in my post above I alluded to the reintroduction of Sehwag and Zaheer into the setup to bolster the team with their extensive experience, Gambhir's should also stay there. Mathematically 3-1 is better than 4-0, more attractive to the eyes aint it?
Have a read of this article and tell me if you disagree with it also:

Post-Lord's, India's numbers weaker than in 2011 | Cricket News | England v India | ESPN Cricinfo

Bear in my mind I have posted with most specifics on the last two tests in my post above.

A long test series like this is good for cricket fans and players. Fitness is tested along with skills. Sadly India played alot of cricket leading up to the this tour and they are tired. A 5 test series should also have practice games in it like the older days, all this having work against India.

I think the major point you have made here is about India not playing the experienced players. But they cannot do that.

Its actually unfortunate that all the past generation sort of went out at the same time. Zaheer was in the team as recently as on the tours to SA and NZ, and he was rather hopeless. He had lost all pace, lost all movement, and terribly underperforming. Picking him makes no sense. Sehwag in the past domestic year has averaged lower than no. 11 Ashish Nehra, and thus again picking him is unfathomable. Gambhir with the last 4 tests more or less sealed his fate here, not that he has performed much in domestic cricket either. So if they are not performing no matter how much experience they have, there is no point picking them.

Instead fo returning to the past, its best to move forward then, and thus Ind have to try out new guys. Even if those veterans perform its a very small investment. Trying out new players now will have longer payoffs.

 

[grkrama]

the problem was the second generation of seniors just sort of fellout when the fab four started declining, only dhoni has survived, the plan would have been that sehwag,gambhir, yuvi, dhoni,zak would be around even when srt,dravid,andlaxman went out, but the loss of all of them together has left us with an inexperienced setup, but wil also be good thing in long run.

 

[Samuels]

@Samuels Excellent point and that is what I have been saying all along.

As a captain the one failing Dhoni has is lack of away wins. Apart from this he ticks all the boxes. India have been more dominant then ever in home tests 70% wins under Dhoni (21 in 30). Second best is 47% wins under Ganguly at home, and look at the team Ganguly had ! Thumped Australia 4-0 last year, are presently on a 6 match winning run at home which is 2nd best ever winning home streak for India. Dhoni has in one run won all major ICC Events. Asia Cup, World Cup and Champions Trophy. That shows an amazing consistency and dominance.

Yes Dhoni is not winning away, but no one has won before him either. India have always struggled overseas. Lets not also forget that Dhoni has no tests as captain against Zim or Bangladesh away, where 54% of Ganguly's away wins have come.

However apart from not being able to do this one thing, Dhoni has done a lot of what others before him couldn't do, like he has made India more consistant than ever at home, has won all ICC events in one run. WC then CT. This shows good consitency of dominance in ODIs. Only Australia I think have achieved this in the past.

So why are we juding Dhoni on the one thing he has failed to do, and ignoring all the other wonderful things he has done, not even half of which any present day captain can claim to have done.[DOUBLEPOST=1408540201][/DOUBLEPOST]

Yeah, but the conditions were definitely helping Anderson, and we all know he can do when the ball swings. He was the big difference. For the entire Ind Squad this was the first ever test tour to Eng (except MSD and Ishat)

Also Root and Ballance are going to play cricket for the next 15 years easily. Both super batsmen. Root is better than Ballance, or more fun to watch, but both are going to be super for many years to come.

I find Dhoni's captaincy in tests, particularly overseas very very short of imagination. Yes, he has all the ODI trophies to show but one thing I have felt is he looks short of ideas when it comes to set fields in test matches even when playing home. Usually, he gets away with poor field placing at home because they are used to the conditions and bowlers, their weak link, look all the more threatening on their pitches (you do not require too many fielders when quality tweakers are bowling on a wicket that is turning square) but they do not get that advantage away and that is where the poor field placing hurts side by side of poor implementation by the players, particularly the batsmen. How many more tests does Dhoni needs to play to learn that he cannot have a 7-2 field or long on/off back on the fence from the 1st hour of a day's play.

My point was never about comparing the skippers but comparing the record of different sides but now that point has been raised, let me throw some light to Ganguly's captaincy. Though not having a great record to show, Ganguly was aggressive even away from home which was a breath of fresh air in Indian cricket, particularly after depending a lot on Sachin till the late 90s and the match fixing saga. Such aggressiveness gives a player a confidence which in turns makes him try more and thus get better results. I think Ganguly knew how exactly to get the best out of his players which I would like to see in Dhoni.It is not about the stats; it is about ideas and courage to take tough decision it is that that you need to win overseas apart from quality players. It is not every day that he will be able to turn a Joginder Sharma into a hero. He needs to learn to get the best of his players, overseas including himself as a player.

 

[PokerAce]

I find Dhoni's captaincy in tests, particularly overseas very very short of imagination. Yes, he has all the ODI trophies to show but one thing I have felt is he looks short of ideas when it comes to set fields in test matches even when playing home. Usually, he gets away with poor field placing at home because they are used to the conditions and bowlers, their weak link, look all the more threatening on their pitches (you do not require too many fielders when quality tweakers are bowling on a wicket that is turning square) but they do not get that advantage away and that is where the poor field placing hurts side by side of poor implementation by the players, particularly the batsmen. How many more tests does Dhoni needs to play to learn that he cannot have a 7-2 field or long on/off back on the fence from the 1st hour of a day's play.

My point was never about comparing the skippers but comparing the record of different sides but now that point has been raised, let me throw some light to Ganguly's captaincy. Though not having a great record to show, Ganguly was aggressive even away from home which was a breath of fresh air in Indian cricket, particularly after depending a lot on Sachin till the late 90s and the match fixing saga. Such aggressiveness gives a player a confidence which in turns makes him try more and thus get better results. I think Ganguly knew how exactly to get the best out of his players which I would like to see in Dhoni.It is not about the stats; it is about ideas and courage to take tough decision it is that that you need to win overseas apart from quality players. It is not every day that he will be able to turn a Joginder Sharma into a hero. He needs to learn to get the best of his players, overseas including himself as a player.

When did MSD have the Long on or long off back at any point during the Eng series, especially at the end of 1st hr? His criticism on faulty field placing are greatly exaggerated. I find it odd that field placings is where Dhoni is blamed. Dhoni knows exactly who to place where in ODIs and yet suddenly loses his mind in tests ! Come on !

For all his aggression as a captain what did Ganguly bring in terms of wins. Nothing. Not one ICC event won ! Sure the drawn series in Aus was great, but thats about it. Even at home he was not as dominant as MSD. And compare the teams they both had. Kumble in Ind was the biggest guarantee of a win, and Dhoni has never played a home test with Kumble in his side, and yet delivered more dominance than Ganguly in tests at home.

You are saying MSD needs to learn to get the best of his players, overseas , which is just saying that he needs to improve the results overseas. Of course he does, but that is just stating the obvious.

The point though is that even for all his aggression, Ganguly lags way behind MSD on almost all fronts. Winning major trophies is the biggest breath of fresh air in Ind cricket in recent years.

 

[abhi_jacko]

MSD was actually very poor in NZ/SA where he would go on the defensive at the drop of a hat. We ended up losing/drawing tests despite being in winning positions because of that. Also his (management's) stubbornness to pick up only 4 frontline bowlers was a major contributing factor in us not having a couple of historic overseas series. He actually did accept his folly indirectly because you could see he was intent on going with 5 bowlers (even if one of them was Bunny).

And he is/was actually quite unimaginative with field setting in India as well. He was absolutely clueless when KP and Cook were belting runs when they last visited us. Was just waiting for the batsmen to make mistakes and bowling the same ineffective bowlers in long unending spells.

Compared to this, he actually did much better as a captain both on and off the field. He was flexible when it came to changing the team around, and he also seemed to be showing some proactive intent on the field