3rd Test: Australia v England at The WACA, Perth, 13-17 Dec

[ste_mc_efc]

Like Australia looked to the future with Rogers?

they brought him in largely for the ten ashes tests in ~6 months.

if we were somehow 3-0 up in this series, i suspect Australia would consider dumping him to give a few games to a younger player. they may even drop him now, but unlikely.

Carberry played as it was deemed he'd give us the best chance of winning the series. Now that we can't win the series the other factors of selection (i.e. long term thinking) he may as well be dropped to prepare the replacement.

 

[Lebanna]

Giving Phil Hughes more time in the domestic setup is only furthering his game more and more. Rogers is healthy competition for Hughes, and having lost his place for a first time in a while he's smashed a brace of tons and a double to accompany it in his last 4 Sheffield Shield matches.
Well played Aussies, though I wonder if this series does go on to be a whitewash whether we'll just forget our issues [Bailey/Watson/Rogers looking incomplete etc.] and tour South Africa, which would be a terrible, terrible miscalculation to say the least.

Anywho, where were all you Perth residents, poor support guys, poor support indeed!

I think that is a good point. England were woeful and made Australia seem unbeatable.

When it comes to SA, remember when England played them last they were pretty comprehensively beaten (especially in the first test) while at home, and in form (of sorts).

What I mean is, if Australia take this team to be the "finished article" and try and play SA with it, I would be very afraid as an Aussie supporter. I think SA will show just how far they still need to go.

Don't get me wrong the Aussies were excellent in the last three tests, but its only three tests compared to quite a long run of less than ideal results!

 

[karolkarol]

they brought him in largely for the ten ashes tests in ~6 months.

if we were somehow 3-0 up in this series, i suspect Australia would consider dumping him to give a few games to a younger player. they may even drop him now, but unlikely.

Carberry played as it was deemed he'd give us the best chance of winning the series. Now that we can't win the series the other factors of selection (i.e. long term thinking) he may as well be dropped to prepare the replacement.

Exactly, a stop gap until they have a better replacement. The problem with England is that I don't see that they have a notably better replacement currently for Carberry now Trott is out of the team.

In England's opening stands in the 3 tests Cook has been out before Carberry 4 times out of 6. Those 30s of Carberry's don't look as bad when there is somebody matching them at the other end and the team is 75/1 instead of 15/1.

Root has hardly looked a picture of security at 3 and Compton appears to be out of the picture so where do you go next? The unproven Robson? I think with no Trott, Root at 3 and no other obvious candidate to bat there (see Compton), Carberry is about as good as we currently have to open with Cook.

Whether that is the case when Sri Lanka come in May I don't know but he should be allowed to finish this tour and go to the Windies in my opinion.

 

[Cricketdude]

Who Has The Ashes?

 

[IceAgeComing]

Also, drop KP

 

[barmyarmy]

Yeah why wouldn't we drop our best player? Aggers and Boycs are way off beam on that one.

 

[Owzat]

I've got no problem with him but playing him now is pointless. He was brought in as a stop-gap measure and we may as well look to the future at this point.

I agree, and a pointless stop gap measure at that. He took up a batting space in Bangladesh before being recalled for this series with no great pluses other than he can be a pleasing dasher, no substance so far and a 30-40 seems to be about all you might expect from him

It would have been better to leave Root as opener where he'd done ok, and stuck with Bairstow or given someone younger (than Carberry which ain't hard to do) a prolonged chance.

And what is the gain? If Carberry had done ok he might be a solution for a few years. Compton is loved/pitied/sided with by some on here, but he went through a poor patch, his only plus a couple of hundreds against modest opposition and at 29 had to either work from the off and sustained or be cast aside.

So what do England do? Replace a 29 year old opener averaging about a dozen in his last six innings with a 34 (?) year old in Carberry who gets in before getting out without really making the opposition suffer. And how many chances before he gets to 30-40? Didn't windies embarrass themselves with Lambert and some other fella a few years ago in a similar fashion?

Re Rogers, he's decent enough and capable of getting to a hundred, but doesn't seem a long term solution, brought in when the aussies were struggling for runs. England brought Carberry in on the back of a 3-0 home win

In fairness I criticised England for the number of over 30s, the aussies are worse! Smith is the only one under 27

 

[PackenHols]

I agree, and a pointless stop gap measure at that. He took up a batting space in Bangladesh before being recalled for this series with no great pluses other than he can be a pleasing dasher, no substance so far and a 30-40 seems to be about all you might expect from him

It would have been better to leave Root as opener where he'd done ok, and stuck with Bairstow or given someone younger (than Carberry which ain't hard to do) a prolonged chance.

And what is the gain? If Carberry had done ok he might be a solution for a few years. Compton is loved/pitied/sided with by some on here, but he went through a poor patch, his only plus a couple of hundreds against modest opposition and at 29 had to either work from the off and sustained or be cast aside.

So what do England do? Replace a 29 year old opener averaging about a dozen in his last six innings with a 34 (?) year old in Carberry who gets in before getting out without really making the opposition suffer. And how many chances before he gets to 30-40? Didn't windies embarrass themselves with Lambert and some other fella a few years ago in a similar fashion?

Re Rogers, he's decent enough and capable of getting to a hundred, but doesn't seem a long term solution, brought in when the aussies were struggling for runs. England brought Carberry in on the back of a 3-0 home win

In fairness I criticised England for the number of over 30s, the aussies are worse! Smith is the only one under 27

I think that is unfair on Compton. Players do go through periods of bad form. Just because he is 29 doesn't mean it should of been two bad tests and he's off the team. They should of least given him the first test at Trent Bridge.

 

[MUFC1987]

Pure and simply we've been outplayed. Batting especially. I think the bowlers looked ok at the start of the series, but being constantly in the field didn't help matters in that respect.

Great to see Stokes standing up and showing something though. I just hope the selection process is looked at after this series as some changes are needed. Flower has always been the man with a plan, but it just seems to have been blown out of the window in this series. Take Root for example, moved down the order because he struggled at the top, yet as soon as Trott left, he got put back up there. That's just senseless for me. Either KP or Bell should have played there if no one else was being called up.

I just hope for the rest of the series we give guys like Finn, Rankin and Ballance a go. We have nothing to lose and the current team just aren't up too it, to be quite honest. We should at least get some fight from the fresh legs of Rankin and Finn.

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Oh and my favourite stat of the day, is that the last two times we went past 400, two of our top three scored centuries. In both innings, the same bloke scored tons, it won't take much to guess who.

 

[T.J.Hooker]

Oh and my favourite stat of the day, is that the last two times we went past 400, two of our top three scored centuries. In both innings, the same bloke scored tons, it won't take much to guess who.

Wally Hammond?

 

[War]

Well, maybe I'm wrong about that, or maybe I've overstated it.

Possibly I should say that I'd heard of his having a divisive effect on dressing rooms, or was not always the universally beloved figure the public perceived. Generally pros don't like to go on the record about dressing room stuff like that but it's the impression I've got from a few people over the years, and I've read allusions to these sorts of issues often enough - that Flintoff is not welcome in the England dressing room these days, for instance - that I'd just kind of thought it was the majority view of those "in the know".

IIRC Atherton has suggested he was not universally popular at Lancs, and Duncan Fletcher reportedly took a dim view of Flintoff's effect on the dressing room at times, especially as captain.

Flintoff can't stand Atherton, that's for sure, so there's some needle there from somewhere.

Like I said though, maybe I've got it wrong.

Ye i know him and Athers can't stand each other for sure. But i never heard that Flintoff is not welcome in the ENG dressing room these days, however has become quite distant from cricket since he retirement, baring the odd comments about the game here or there.

I was in his age group and I played at Lancs. I first heard about him when he was 14, first saw him play at 15 (I was on the other team). By the time I got scouted at 16 he was already playing for Lancs seconds.

I knew quite a lot of people involved in the setup at Old Trafford through that. His batting stats as were absolutely phenomenal, and all the talk I heard about him prior to the age of 20 was about him smashing hundreds all over the place, and about the coaches at Lancs pressuring him to let the bowling go as it was a distraction and already giving him injury problems.

The only other guy in the country at the time posting stats like that with the bat as a junior was Marcus Trescothic, as far as I can remember.

Ahh well i respect that this inside knowledge given that you played cricket at the youth level to hear it. I also did hear talk back then about people suggesting that he should give up bowling during to the injury worries. This forever was an problem for him for sure as his career showed -but he had to be an all-rounder, don't think in hindsight even that he could have just been a batsman at international level.

 

[Aislabie]

This Ashes series, which is the second five-match series in a few short months, and will undoubtedly be taxing on a largely unchanged bowling attack, has seen only Stuart Broad make any real inroads into the Australian batting. He has eased his way into second place on the wickets chart with fourteen at 25.21. More worryingly, though, the rest of the English bowling averages read thus:

James Anderson: 7 wickets @ 58.42 (3 Tests)
Graeme Swann: 7 wickets @ 80.00 (3 Tests)
Ben Stokes: 5 wickets @ 47.00 (2 Tests)
Chris Tremlett: 4 wickets @ 30.00 (1 Test)
Tim Bresnan: 3 wickets @ 44.66 (1 Test)
Monty Panesar: 2 wickets @ 99.00 (1 Test)
---
Joe Root: 0 wickets for 90 (3 Tests)
Steven Finn: 11 wickets @ 33.36 (2 first-class)
Boyd Rankin: 7 wickets @ 33.57 (2 first-class)

Now, even by pre-Cardiff Bangladeshi standards, that's pretty woeful. It isn't just that the bowlers have struggled for wickets (which they have), it's the fact that the two bowlers being (over-)hyped as the best seamer and spinner in the world have been treated like club trundlers that really stings. When England were beating all-comers a couple of years ago, the Anderson-Broad-Bresnan-Swann quartet struck fear into the hearts of the world, but now the fact that only one of them has a Test average of under thirty is painfully obvious. And that one is Swann, whose figure of 29.96 will soon too teeter over that golden figure if he plays another game on this horror tour.

Full article
The bowling "attack" and a one-legged Broad - The Popping Crease

 

[bigred]

I'm not for big change during a tour and I don't expect England to change much for Melbourne. I would however be looking to make changes for May. Nasser is right. Cook inherited a team put together by Strauss and Flower. This should be seen as an exciting time for the captain to build a team for himself.

My thinking would be:

Openers
Cook stays, despite a few ex players suggesting that he should move down the order to take a bit of pressure off. He's a natural opener and should remain. I'd partner him up with Sam Robson. Strauss really rates him. He's got an excellent technique, and his stats have been good during the English domestic season, and on the EPP tour. I would avoid the temptation to move Root up as I think number 3 is the most difficult position in the batting order, and like Trott, I think he has the right temperament to do the job. He's also been moved about a lot, so an extended run in the same position will be good for him.

Middle order
Following Root at 3 I'd have Bell(best bat should always bat 4. Low enough to avoid the new ball, but high enough not to get stranded with the tail.) Stokes has to stay at 6 now. He's a quality batter. Just a bonus that he bowls relatively quick. Number 5 spot goes to Ballance. He has the most impressive stats and form in the county game behind him. I'm a fan of James Taylor and Jonny Bairstow also, so they wouldn't be too far away. Wouldn't completely close the door on Morgan or Bopara either.

Keeper
Buttler. Simple!

Spinner
Cupboard really is empty. Kerrigan is the only bowler in domestic cricket who is remotely dangerous. I would get him straight back in for the summer. Don't let him continually think about his debut, believing it could be years before they give him another chance. He'll only begin to doubt himself then.

Quicks
Very tempted to get rid of Anderson, as he's been useless for 7 tests. Although if you handed him the vice captaincy, and got his confidence up by letting him take few wickets against Sri Lanka on a green top, he could get himself back to somewhere near his best for the home matches against India, and then Australia the following year. Broad obviously joins him, which means we need someone quick to come in to complete the attack, as Broad and Anderson are just north of medium pace these days.

Mills, Wood and Overton are all quick, and in time I think Overton will be a real handful. But I would go back to Finn. He has shown signs of someone who can bowl at 90mph, and bowl magic balls. If someone can get hold of him before the summer and make him into what he was 18 months ago, I still believe he is the best young fast bowler in the land.

So team would be

Cook
Robson
Root
Bell
Ballance
Stokes
Buttler
Broad
Finn
Anderson
Kerrigan.

 

[Skater]

If we are doing an England team of the future here's mine:

Cook (c)
Lyth
Root
Pietersen
Bell
Bairstow (wk)
Stokes
Broad
Swann
Finn
Onions

That would be my selection from now until the end of the South Africa tour this time next year. I think that tour is when you'll see Pietersen retire.

EDIT: I also happen to think the Aussies have just as big, if not bigger, problems as us. Their players are old and will need replacing.

 

[MUFC1987]

On people mentioning Buttler, I'm not convinced he's quite there as a First Class batsman just yet. He showed signs last year and should be better this year, but he's not there yet. Got to be either Steven Davies or Craig Kieswetter for me. Bairstow needs a season of playing cricket rather than just carrying drinks.

On Finn, he reminds me of the way we were with Anderson. Looked good at times, but got put into a lot of squads without playing too much, so looked rusty when he did play. With Anderson though, the senior bowlers left for various reasons (the 2005 Ashes attack) and he came to the fore. Even with Broad and Anderson, there's still a space for Finn there, especially if we have another seamer in the side in Stokes. Time to just put Finn in the side and give him 10 Tests in a row to see how good he can be. It's hard for him to come in knowing he has to do well straight away in order to get the gig long term. The guy has a bucket load of potential.

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And I think the biggest issue England will face is replacing Trott. Root looks good at times, but isn't ready to be facing the new ball just yet. Someone solid at 3 is hard to find and we really were lucky to have Trott these last few years.