Flintoff vs Botham

[Owzat]

Now Flintoff has announced his retirement it seems a good time to discuss the two English all-rounders. I think asking who was better is a waste of time although some may disagree, but perhaps more discuss what Flintoff could have done to be a better all-rounder, if his impact could have been greater and how.

IT Botham

Tests : 102
Batting : 5200 runs @ 33.55 (SR 60.71, 100 x14, 50 x22)
Bowling : 383 wkts @ 28.40 (SR 56.96, ER 2.99, 10wm x4, 5wi x27)

vs Australia

Batting : 1673 runs @ 29.35 (100 x4, 50 x6)
Bowling : 148 wkts @ 27.66 (SR 57.14, ER 2.90, 10wm x2, 5wi x9)

A Flintoff

Tests : 79
Batting : 3845 runs @ 31.78 (SR 62.04, 100 x5, 50 x26)
Bowling : 226 wkts @ 32.79 (SR 66.15, ER 2.97, 10wm x0, 5wi x3)

vs Australia

Batting : 906 runs @ 33.56 (100 x1, 50x6)
Bowling : 50 wkts @ 33.20 (SR 59.26, ER 3.36, 10wm x0, 5wi x2)


While Flintoff played an arguably tougher aussie side, Botham played a very much more demanding West Indies side. Flintoff helped himself to wickets and lesserly runs against West Indies and Bangladesh.

A Flintoff

vs BAN/WIN : 682 runs @ 42.63 & 40 wkts @ 23.28
vs the rest : 3163 runs @ 30.12 & 186 wkts @ 34.83

Botham's Ashes vs Flintoff's Ashes

Botham 1981 : 399 runs @ 36.27 & 34 wkts @ 20.59
Flintoff 2005 : 402 runs @ 40.20 & 24 wkts @ 27.29


Botham pretty much single handedly dragged England to victory from the brink of defeat at Headingley when England were following on and still 92 runs short of making Australia bat again at 135/7 in their 2nd innings.

Flintoff for me never maximised his bowling potential, economic and sometimes devastating, but not enough wickets for his ability. His batting was at times too lazy, he played some great cameos but his lack of hundreds and five wicket hauls speak volumes regardless how close to Botham he got in averages, SRs etc. Not one single ten wicket haul in 79 matches, only three five wicket hauls and five hundreds which is disappointing. And perhaps to sum up a disappointing career, only in two series did he score more than 270 runs and only in two series did he take 20+ wickets. Botham scored 270+ runs in seven series and took 20+ wickets in five series

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

flintoff should have been at least as good as botham, he had height and genuine pace, he also arguably had more power when he was batting, even though botham was well up for going a bit mental.

unfortunately, neither were very contentious about their fitness and this probably harmed flintoff more, with the larger frame and more dynamic bowling action. Botham also hit the ground running in tests and managed to get a lot done before his fitness started hindering him whereas flintoff struggled with consistency and never managed to sort this out for any length of time before the knees started giving way.

it has to be botham. flintoff is a good example of potential wasted, but that a lot of it was his own fault means I have less sympathy for him than some of the other players that never managed to make the career their talent deserved, like shane bond.

 

[ZexyZahid]

You can read some statistics in this article.

The Flintoff story in numbers
S Rajesh
August 25, 2009
The Flintoff story in numbers | England Cricket Features | Cricinfo.com

 

[sifter132]

Flintoff for me never maximised his bowling potential, economic and sometimes devastating, but not enough wickets for his ability. His batting was at times too lazy, he played some great cameos but his lack of hundreds and five wicket hauls speak volumes regardless how close to Botham he got in averages, SRs etc. Not one single ten wicket haul in 79 matches, only three five wicket hauls and five hundreds which is disappointing. And perhaps to sum up a disappointing career, only in two series did he score more than 270 runs and only in two series did he take 20+ wickets. Botham scored 270+ runs in seven series and took 20+ wickets in five series

Thats a pretty good summary. They certainly were different in how they contributed. Botham was the king of 100s and 5fers - but take those out of his career averages and he was pretty tame really, he was just hard to stop once he got going. Flintoff was kinda the opposite, threw away many innings and never bowled full enough to get 5fers too often.

Both players also had some poor periods in their career which makes their career stats a little warped. Flintoff in particular started very slowly, while Botham hung on too long.

Botham was certainly the better match winner overall, but Flintoff certainly had his moments - as this Aussie fan can attest...

 

[irottev]

Flintoff is NO WHERE NEAR as great a Botham. Botham by a mile.

 

[Manly]

I wouldn't mind having either of them in my Club side.

 

[sami ullah khan]

I have not seen botham play that much but Stats show he was a legend. Flintoff needed to play a lot more to catch up with Sir Ian.

 

[razahood]

well Freddie was not great as Botham.He was a legend

 

[Slogger7]

it has to be botham. flintoff is a good example of potential wasted, but that a lot of it was his own fault means I have less sympathy for him than some of the other players that never managed to make the career their talent deserved, like shane bond.

About things being his own fault, I think some of his silliness actually made him more appealing to me and made it even more enjoyable when he succeeded. He was a late blossomer for sure so Beefy takes it.

 

[barto123]

can you imagine having them both in the same team? their presence alone would pretty much garrentee the ashes to england simply cause the aussies would be too scared to take the field.

both legends in their own way, not so much for their perforances, but their persona's.

 

[Shoaib87]

Botham,no contest.

 

[offdriven4]

no brainer,Botham-performed THROUGHOUT his test career whereas Flintoff had a purple patch of 2-3 years

 

[sifter132]

^Well he performed longer than Flintoff did, but there's no way Botham performed throughout his career. The last half of his career was a big tail off from the first few years he had.
Here's the cricinfo stat summary article for Botham and you'll see the dropoff in performance:
Stats analysis: Ian Botham | Specials | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com

Here's the Flintoff article. He peaked in the middle, rather than the end:
The Flintoff story in numbers | England Cricket Features | Cricinfo.com

 

[Robelinda]

One thing i'll give Flintoff credit for is at least he beat a full strength aussie team, Botham never did. 1981 could have been very different if Greg Chappell had decided to tour.

 

[offdriven4]

However,2005 might've been different if McGrath was fit for the whole series.