New Zealand's Tour Of India Aug-Sep 2012

[CG123]

Let me guess you much prefer the batting side that toured us 2 years ago?

McIntosh
McCullum
Guptill
Taylor
Ryder
Williamson
Hopkins
Vettori

Remember you guys drew the first 2 Tests against the then No.1 Test team.

Obviously we would be in slightly better batting shape if we had both Ryder and Vettori there, but we just don't have the player depth coming through atm.

McIntosh would struggle the same as Flynn is, while the same goes for Hopkins compared to van Wyk. Guptill's always been completely at sea against spin, and McCullum and Taylor are both pretty hit and miss in testing batting conditions.

In terms of looking ahead to the next test, Watling is definitely a better batting option compared to van Wyk, although you very rarely see a team make a keeping change mid-series. We don't have any other batting options over there, so our top six is going to stay the same. In terms of the bowlers, you can't drop either Patel or Boult, so the only option is whether they want to throw Nethula or Southee in for probably Bracewell.

 

[khalek]

I think NZ should give up their hopes on Flynn. They should look to give more opportunities to Grant Elliot and Neil Broom. Is there any chance of Vettori getting fit before the 2nd test?

 

[ferg512]

Obviously we would be in slightly better batting shape if we had both Ryder and Vettori there, but we just don't have the player depth coming through atm.

McIntosh would struggle the same as Flynn is, while the same goes for Hopkins compared to van Wyk. Guptill's always been completely at sea against spin, and McCullum and Taylor are both pretty hit and miss in testing batting conditions.

In terms of looking ahead to the next test, Watling is definitely a better batting option compared to van Wyk, although you very rarely see a team make a keeping change mid-series. We don't have any other batting options over there, so our top six is going to stay the same. In terms of the bowlers, you can't drop either Patel or Boult, so the only option is whether they want to throw Nethula or Southee in for probably Bracewell.

Yeah I am kind of disappointed Watling is not there, was really promising during the West Indies tour (even though only in the ODIs). Probably a bit late by now but I would like to see McCullum given the captaincy sometime in the near future. I'm not a fan of McCullum at all but i think he'd be a much better captain than Taylor who quite honestly is horrible. It really is concerning me lately the way Taylor is laughing and joking around in the field without a care in the world. Obviously you're flirting with danger giving McCullum more power but I really think he might relish the role and its not like things could be any worse than they are under Taylor atm anyway.

 

[Aalay]

I think Jesse Ryder is must in NZ line-up. He is a very good player and does play spin very well. He also has a very good record against India. I don't think Vettori would have made any difference though. His bowling has been horribly out of touch but probably his batting would have made some difference. He does play spin very well I think. Walting is another guy as you all mentioned. He did very well in WI and was the only player to do well from NZ. So I don't know if he is injured or not but he should be in the team in place of Flynn. I also think that they should remove Bracewell because his bowling was absolutely shite. Probably get Southee in the team?

McCullum
Guptil
Willimson
Taylor
Ryder
Walting
Franklin
Southee
Patel
Boult
Martin

 

[icyman]

Getting in one person-say Ryder wont change the dynamics of the Kiwi line-up. They have to be able to play the spinners decently.

 

[Aalay]

Getting in one person-say Ryder wont change the dynamics of the Kiwi line-up. They have to be able to play the spinners decently.

Well they won't learn playing spin bowling overnight so it's better to bring in a player who is actually good at it to lessen the damage.

 

[sifter132]

Yeah I am kind of disappointed Watling is not there, was really promising during the West Indies tour (even though only in the ODIs). Probably a bit late by now but I would like to see McCullum given the captaincy sometime in the near future. I'm not a fan of McCullum at all but i think he'd be a much better captain than Taylor who quite honestly is horrible. It really is concerning me lately the way Taylor is laughing and joking around in the field without a care in the world. Obviously you're flirting with danger giving McCullum more power but I really think he might relish the role and its not like things could be any worse than they are under Taylor atm anyway.

It's made me like Ross Taylor more actually But I can see the argument, a grumpy/stern captain may get better results. Australians always hold up Allan Border as their shining example: Captain Grumpy himself. But guys like Mark Taylor and Michael Clarke are the opposite and they've managed to do pretty well. It just depends what's happening behind the scenes too, in the dressing room, and unless we detect some infighting or confrontation it's all a complete guess as to who might be a better leader.

Getting in one person-say Ryder wont change the dynamics of the Kiwi line-up. They have to be able to play the spinners decently.

Exactly. If NZ really wanted to win the series they'd probably phone up Scott Styris and get him in there. But it's worth the short term pain to try and get your younger players more experienced against spin. The real crime was not having a warmup match to help. I know they said they went in without a warmup last time and did OK, but the more chances they have to play on these type of pitches, the more the batsmen will learn.

 

[CG123]

Adams and Vincent would both slot in their quite nicely as well. I think for the next test if it's a similar pitch we're going to have to go in with two specialist spinners if we're going to have any chance of competing. Our batting's not going to change overnight, other than either McCullum or Williamson getting a big score like they did last time, so we have to take a punt and throw Nethula in there (as well as Patel). Sure he might go none for 100, but he can at least turn the bowl and neither of India's current spinner are leggies so their new guys might not have had a lot of recent practice against one.

So for the second test I'd be going with:

McCullum
Guptill
Williamson
Taylor
Flynn
Franklin
Watling
Patel
Nethula
Boult
Martin

 

[Epic]

Adams and Vincent would both slot in their quite nicely as well. I think for the next test if it's a similar pitch we're going to have to go in with two specialist spinners if we're going to have any chance of competing. Our batting's not going to change overnight, other than either McCullum or Williamson getting a big score like they did last time, so we have to take a punt and throw Nethula in there (as well as Patel). Sure he might go none for 100, but he can at least turn the bowl and neither of India's current spinner are leggies so their new guys might not have had a lot of recent practice against one.

Maybe that's why they picked Chawla, for throw downs.

 

[Aalay]

I think for the next test if it's a similar pitch we're going to have to go in with two specialist spinners if we're going to have any chance of competing. Our batting's not going to change overnight, other than either McCullum or Williamson getting a big score like they did last time, so we have to take a punt and throw Nethula in there (as well as Patel). Sure he might go none for 100, but he can at least turn the bowl and neither of India's current spinner are leggies so their new guys might not have had a lot of recent practice against one.

I don't think Nethula will create any threat in Indian batsman's mind. I also thought about him when I was writing the lineup but if somebody is going to trouble India, it will be Southee, not Nethula. Patel is still ok because he has bowled in India before but Nethula hasn't done that. Piyush Chawla is in the squad currently for this test series so I am sure all the batsman have practice of playing leggies. Though Nethula does have a very weird action and can bowl the wrong-un which might force NZ to pick him for next test.

Maybe that's why they picked Chawla, for throw downs.

 

[CG123]

I don't think Nethula will create any threat in Indian batsman's mind. I also thought about him when I was writing the lineup but if somebody is going to trouble India, it will be Southee, not Nethula. Patel is still ok because he has bowled in India before but Nethula hasn't done that. Piyush Chawla is in the squad currently for this test series so I am sure all the batsman have practice of playing leggies. Though Nethula does have a very weird action and can bowl the wrong-un which might force NZ to pick him for next test.

Southee's been tried against India and in India before though.

vs India - 6 wickets @ 63, E/R 3.9
in India - 4 wickets @ 56, E/R 3.4

Excluding Bang and Zim he's taken 39 wickets at 47, with an E/R of 3.4.

Tbh I don't think Nethula will succeed, but I just think that they have to try something different. Ok I didn't know that they had Chawla in the squad so that takes away a bit of the surprise factor that I thought he might have, but the three medium pacers one spin approach is just not going to work with the uselessness of our batting. Yes the two medium pacers two spinners approach might end up being worse, but we can't get much worse than the first test.

Patel done a reasonable job of containing them in the first test, iirc his E/R was under 3, so if he can continue that they will attack Nethula, and yes that could get messy for us if he doesn't get it right, but there is a chance that he gets a couple right and takes a few wickets.

It's the old saying really; "nothing ventured, nothing gained." And we can't get any lower than we are atm.

 

[Howsie]

but we can't get much worse than the first test.

What exactly did the bowlers do wrong during the first test? Not score enough runs perhaps because as a group they were more than good enough, as they have been over the last 12 months or so. I find it a little odd that in this point in time of New Zealand cricket, possibly our lowest in 15 or so years you want to drop Doug Bracewell. The same Doug Bracewell who at 21 has picked up 38 wickets in his first 10 test matches @ 25 and won us two test matches basically by himself already. Heck he'd probably struggle to get dropped from the England team with a start like that.

If any bowler should go it's Chris Martin, tbh I have no idea how he actually managed to make the playing XI seeing as he was dropped in the West Indies and Tim Southee who replaced him was the pick of our bowlers in that test. 37, can't bat, can't field and can barely bowl. Why play him again?

As for Nethula he's just far too loose, it's as simple as that. There's a reason why he didn't get a run in the Windies on those pitches. Yeah he bowls leg spin but that's the only thing going for him, he'd get carted against the Indian's, Bryce McGain style in all probabilty.

 

[CG123]

What exactly did the bowlers do wrong during the first test? Not score enough runs perhaps because as a group they were more than good enough, as they have been over the last 12 months or so.

I can't disagree with you there. The batting is where the problem lies, I'm pretty sure I've said that over the last few pages. When we only take over one extra batsman who I would already be bringing in because of how average van Wyk's batting was, there's not a lot that can be done in that department though. Sure the same attack might do a good job again and roll them for 400ish again, but is that going to get us anywhere with the batsmen that we have over there? More than likely no.

I find it a little odd that in this point in time of New Zealand cricket, possibly our lowest in 15 or so years you want to drop Doug Bracewell. The same Doug Bracewell who at 21 has picked up 38 wickets in his first 10 test matches @ 25 and won us two test matches basically by himself already. Heck he'd probably struggle to get dropped from the England team with a start like that.

He was pretty average in the first test. Yes he might've just had a bad few days, but he was also struggling with cramp etc. after only bowling a dozen or so overs. Obviously in an ideal world we'd be playing on much more pace friendly pitches were he's succeeded in the early part of his career, but you've got to put those numbers in perspective.

If any bowler should go it's Chris Martin, tbh I have no idea how he actually managed to make the playing XI seeing as he was dropped in the West Indies and Tim Southee who replaced him was the pick of our bowlers in that test. 37, can't bat, can't field and can barely bowl. Why play him again?

I'd keep him there because he's the only one of this group of pace bowlers who's had some sort of success against India. Against India he averages 35, and in India he averages 38. Yes he's very much on the decline now, but I think that he'll offer more with the ball than Bracewell or Southee will, and he did offer more with the ball than what Bracewell did in the first test. Southee has had so many opportunities, and his numbers speak for themselves. He's been hammered in the past by India, so I'm not sure why that would change. I have to admit that I didn't watch much of the West Indies tour at all, so I missed that if he actually bowled alright for once.

As for Nethula he's just far too loose, it's as simple as that. There's a reason why he didn't get a run in the Windies on those pitches. Yeah he bowls leg spin but that's the only thing going for him, he'd get carted against the Indian's, Bryce McGain style in all probabilty.

I'm not going to disagree with you there, because like I said before he will probably struggle. I just don't want to see us go in there with the same team and get smashed again, and like I said above we've got no one over there to replace someone like Flynn who I'd be quite happy to see getting dropped. So I'd take a punt, a very outside gamble if you want to put it that way, because we're already paying 12ish to 1 at the TAB.

 

[Aalay]

What happened with Mark Gillespie? He looked decent (at least better then Chris Martin) in one of the matches I watched when you guys played South Africa. Also Neil Wagner is another one who was being rated very highly I think. I heard he was on the WI tour and saw him bowling once. He has that reverse swing which can be very useful in India if used correctly. Though I like Trent Boult. He bowled decently in first test, especially that delivery to Sachin... that was a beauty.

 

[icyman]

NZL needs to play McCullum in the mid-order. Its gives the sense of a stronger middle order even if NZL are like 60/3. Maybe BJ can open in that case.

Also, another change that I'd like to see-2 spinners. You can't play 4 fasts unless you are Australia with the likes of McGrath, Lee and so on. Agreed that Tarun Nethula is still young,but what better an opportunity than to bowl in India to a few top batsmen. I believe its NZL's best chance of drawing the game.