The Situation In America

ShamiLoverGlipGlops

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I'm just glad I don't live in the US. After university, I got a couple of offers to take a job there, but I wanted to be closer to home. Sure there's more money to be made down there, but here in Canada, I have never felt unsafe or threatned.

I have gone down to the US to travel and vist and almost never had any visit where I felt I was welcome there. I've been to New York, New Jersey, Washington DC and Maryland.

My last visit to Jersey, I was staying with my cousin, who was renting a room from a little old lady who was a republican through and through. This is when Trump was either running for election or had just been elected I can't remember. On my last day there, she says to me, I don't know why Trump says you people are all rapists and murders, you boys have been so wonderful to have around the house... I didn't know what else to say, so I just said thanks...

I can't even begin to understand why people vote the way they do. I have never liked politics, I feel like the more political talks I have with my friends, the less friends I end up having.

I have a few people I work with, here in Canada, who absoultly love Trump and everything that he has done. I seriously can't understand, why or how..
They support him because they feel home. These people are mostly older people easy to brainwash. Trump knows how to make them feel special. His rallies and everything is nationalist, just like Modi's in India and Khans in Pakistan. This is how gullible people get trapped into nationalist policies.
 

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Yeah but the people I work with, sure one of them is an older guy, in his late 50s early 60s. But the other guy, he's in him mid-late 30s.

The second guy even joined the new right-wing party (PPC) here and try to run for MP. He only got 4% of the votes in his riding, but he and I had many discussions and he absolutely feels like there is nothing wrong with what Trump does or says
 

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Now as an outsider I feel that Trump is 20% right. Immigration is such a pain point for all of us in recent 10-15 years. Just as an example, if I apply for Permanent Residence on my Masters degree, for Indian nationals the wait is 151 years. I feel he is good for the economy since he only knows one thing and that is business or the making the greens.

Joe Biden or Democratic party are not doing enough to show they care about American public. They do not have the pulse of the public and hence are losing. Trump is adding salt to injury. Him not supporting any Democratic rules state is causing more trouble. I feel even a president like Obama supported Biden last minute. Democratic party definitely needs better leadership. I do not know how Biden will be for US but businesses who are democratic supporters want another Trump term.

There is a lot of small things going on which will become big soon. Pandemic has shown all one thing for sure, Trump cannot run a country, he can only run economy. Good economy does not necessary mean good country, If people do not survive this pandemic, the economy will never recover.
The idea that he is good at business is the biggest myth of all, created by the celebrity of Trump and The Apprentice. Trump has gone bankrupt five or six times. He failed at running a casino. He's a terrible businessman. The economy was riding the wave of the recovery that started under Obama. And now it's tanked and the first thing they did when the pandemic hit was to enrich themselves and wealthy donors.
 

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He says it is is to fight crime but he uses it to perpetuate acts of violence on what are essentially political enemies in his eye ( THE sign of a despotic regime). They are all democratic lead cities. The Republican Party has been all too quiet turning a blind eye to abject abuse of power.
This is a key factor. He is trying to link his wellbeing/standing to that of the nation. So people who stand against him also stand against the country. Enemies of the people. It the oldest play in the strongman book.
 

ShamiLoverGlipGlops

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The idea that he is good at business is the biggest myth of all, created by the celebrity of Trump and The Apprentice. Trump has gone bankrupt five or six times. He failed at running a casino. He's a terrible businessman. The economy was riding the wave of the recovery that started under Obama. And now it's tanked and the first thing they did when the pandemic hit was to enrich themselves and wealthy donors.
Its what we call Khokla (empty). I know all promises made by most politicians are empty. Trump only cares about being the president since that is his ego booster. He does not care about his own supporters! You although cannot disagree that Democrats do not have good leadership! They need young blood and not same old people who have run washington for a long time. Look how good Canada is doing with not completely but a young prime minister.

Leaving us immigrants out, I have no idea why people of America have kept quiet on a bubble that is not helping them. From healthcare to labor laws, America seems far behind in the race compared to other first world countries.

Also one thing to notice, the top 5 countries in terms of pandemic numbers all have a right wing leader leading the country.
 

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I presume you mean this in the sense that everything he does in the public domain serves only to ensure he retains his current position. What tactics is he employing in order to achieve this and to what extent do you think it is working? And it what way is the fact that he is doing this detrimental to America as a whole?

He is, effectively, declaring war on Democratic cities. Have you seen what's happening in Portland?He plans to do the same in Chicago and other cities that are run by Democrats.

Trump is the embodiment of American conservatism as it currently stands and everything that is wrong with America (and other countries including the UK).

Greed
Ignorance
Anti intellectualism
Anti science
Anti woman
White supremacist/racist
Intolerant
Authoritarian

I didn't see any point in writing this again
 

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I don't live, or have lived, in the US, but I consider myself a political junkie, so I'll add my two cents. I struggle to express my feelings concretely into words, so bear with me, please.

Great post! The whole republican/democrat thing is so extreme over there: there seems to be no middle ground whatsoever: you are either a raging Marxist anarchist in the eyes of a republican or a neo Nazi fanatic in the eyes of a democrat. On both sides of the extremes of the political spectrum these people are there but where is the middle ground, the perception of we are all somehow in this together and need to help each other to get out of it.
Trump is someone who has 'achieved' through rewarding 'loyalty' and punishing any whiff of dissent and thus creating this political environment where in their is no debate whatsoever, just poisonous trolling akin to the worst of the internet.
Seems to be very similar to what we have going on over here. A huge divide between the left and right wings, and zero willingness to compromise on either side. You either have to be a MAGA gun toting 'Merican, or you're a commie lefty snowflake. There has to be a middle ground found. Or it'll only get worse.

Its exacerbated by the President being a giant man baby kicking off on twitter all the time, and the seemingly amazing ability to pretend the COVID pandemic doesn't exist. Whole thing is fecked.
I agree, until they can find a way to escape this dichotomous way of thinking and engage in civilised discourse then the polarisation will continue for the forseeable future. People have to be open to the possibility of being offended in order to understand where the other side is coming from but they are not willing to do that. It gets to the point where if you bring up a sensitive topic the very fact that you have done so becomes taboo by definition.
The problem with the Democrat/Republican thing, even if I nominally agree with your points about deep polarisation and lack of dialogue, is that the political spectrum of the USA is deeply to the right, when compared to Europe. Republicans are mostly corporate religious neoconservatives, Democrats are neoliberal economically, and socially liberal. There is no social democrat, let alone a socialist like Corbyn. Bernie Sanders is the only major player who you could call a social democrat (he calls himself a "democratic socialist", but his policies are social democratic). So a "middle ground" politician in the USA would be comparable to someone who is centre-right economically, like Angela Merkel or David Cameron, and with social policies that are adopted only by the most socially conservative wings of mainstream centre-right parties in Europe. That makes the Republican Party an extremely rightwing one. They are funded by billionaires (David Koch, Sheldon Adelson, etc.), who expect them to protect the interests of the rich. They have built a dark money network, and used the Senate's undemocratic make-up to install right-wing ideologues (from the Federalist Society group) on the Supreme Court and lower courts, who have struck down laws limiting billionaires from spending excessive amounts of money in elections (Citizens United v FEC), and struck down protections from voter suppression for minority populations (Shelby County v Holder). To achieve their goals of eliminating regulations on corporations, and cutting taxes for the wealthy, the Republicans ruthlessly rely on undemocratic means, voter suppression (prevalent in the South), demonisation of immigrants and deification of the military, along the occasional middle class tax cut (the 2017 tax bill cut taxes for the middle class temporarily, before raising them to above pre-2017 levels by 2024, while corporate tax cuts were permanent).
So when you call for "civil discourse" and reaching a "middle ground", that means negotiating with an undemocratic party controlled by the richest, to maybe reach a compromise that is well to the right of the political centre. And because more and more Democrats are realising this, they have started fighting as ruthlessly as the Republicans. But they will never reach the level of the Republicans, because, fundamentally, the Republican Party wants less federal government, ideally none at all (barring the military budget, because they also want to please their military-industrial complex overlords, but that's a story for another day), so they don't care if their tactics destroy public trust in the government, while Democrats believe in using government as a force for good, so they are careful to abuse its powers.
About so-called "cancel culture", to address Loco's jibe about "regressive left", I generally agree that ostracising someone because of their views is not good, unless those views are naturally repulsive. However, collectively organising boycotts and calling for someone to be fired is free speech. Right-wingers are happy to shout "free speech" and "1st amendment", but they don't like the taste of their own medicine.
Now as an outsider I feel that Trump is 20% right. Immigration is such a pain point for all of us in recent 10-15 years. Just as an example, if I apply for Permanent Residence on my Masters degree, for Indian nationals the wait is 151 years. I feel he is good for the economy since he only knows one thing and that is business or the making the greens.
And do you really think Trump will make it easier for you? His chief immigration adviser, Stephen Miller, openly wants to ban all immigration. He just doesn't have the chance to do so, thankfully.
Eliminating excessive regulations and taxes for small businesses is good. My dad is a business owner, I know the struggle. However, it must be offset by higher taxes on multibillionaires and big corporations, to prevent the quality and funding of public services from dropping, along with worker protection through higher minimum wage, and workers having a seat on the board of directors (without workers, no company can function, so a seat at the table where all the major decisions are made is only logical).
 

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To offer my 3 cents on the issue, from what I know of America, the political parties are basically the equivalent of sports teams. You’re either team dem/rep and whichever you choose you have to fully support or back them. It’s like supporting a football club, if you’re a Liverpool fan, you are expected to always, without fail, defend Liverpool in any argument whatsoever. Even when Liverpool are in the wrong. It’s the same in American politics, a Democrat is not allowed to acknowledge what Trump does right, and Republicans cannot acknowledge what he does wrong, either because they refuse to accept it or because they cannot see it happening.

That’s a ridiculous proposition, and ensures no decent conversations between either side. The truth is, as with most politics, the answer is in the middle, not the left or right. Trump isn’t a nazi, and he isn’t the GOAT. He’s the president who’s done some good things and some bad things yet neither side will ever come to that conclusion as it means “losing ground” to your opposition
 

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To offer my 3 cents on the issue, from what I know of America, the political parties are basically the equivalent of sports teams. You’re either team dem/rep and whichever you choose you have to fully support or back them. It’s like supporting a football club, if you’re a Liverpool fan, you are expected to always, without fail, defend Liverpool in any argument whatsoever. Even when Liverpool are in the wrong. It’s the same in American politics, a Democrat is not allowed to acknowledge what Trump does right, and Republicans cannot acknowledge what he does wrong, either because they refuse to accept it or because they cannot see it happening.

That’s a ridiculous proposition, and ensures no decent conversations between either side. The truth is, as with most politics, the answer is in the middle, not the left or right. Trump isn’t a nazi, and he isn’t the GOAT. He’s the president who’s done some good things and some bad things yet neither side will ever come to that conclusion as it means “losing ground” to your opposition
But again, the "middle ground” rhetoric is deeply flawed when applied to the USA, as I articulated in my post above.
And could you name one good thing done by Trump that wasn’t forced on him by an overwhelming majority of Congress?
 

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But again, the "middle ground” rhetoric is deeply flawed when applied to the USA, as I articulated in my post above.
And could you name one good thing done by Trump that wasn’t forced on him by an overwhelming majority of Congress?

I don’t discuss politics when they’re bought up like you just did, it’s beneficial to no one and doesn’t create a good discussion.

I’m not a huge fan of Trump, but with that being said, if you think he’s done nothing good, then you’re proving the point I made earlier
 

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I don’t discuss politics when they’re bought up like you just did, it’s beneficial to no one and doesn’t create a good discussion.

I’m not a huge fan of Trump, but with that being said, if you think he’s done nothing good, then you’re proving the point I made earlier
Well, i’ll just say, generalities like "more consensus" are used in good faith, but we need to analyse political parties and policies more deeply for them to have an effect.
And i do think Trump did a few good things, like being more aggressive in confronting Russia and China's abuses, renegotiating NAFTA, and criminal justice reform. But we also have to acknowledge that all of those had broad bipartisan support.
His list of bad actions is much, much longer.
Couple of good post guys. I am keen for us to stay away from what we think of the other persons point of view and try to stick to commenting on the situation in America rather than on each other!
To explain my viewpoint about the current situation in America, which is that Republicans’ extremism has left no more room for consensus, i had to put you guys’ views about consensus into perspective a bit, so that’s why I initiated a bit of discussion on others' posts.
 

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About so-called "cancel culture", to address Loco's jibe about "regressive left", I generally agree that ostracising someone because of their views is not good, unless those views are naturally repulsive. However, collectively organising boycotts and calling for someone to be fired is free speech. Right-wingers are happy to shout "free speech" and "1st amendment", but they don't like the taste of their own medicine.
Well you need to be more specific as to the reasons why these boycotts and protests are happening in the first place. I agree that everybody has the right to peacefully protest, however a lot of these people are doing so because someone has said something they don't like and want to prevent them from doing so again even if they haven't done something they can be indicted for and furthermore want it enshrined in law. This isn't necessarily the case in all instances of boycott and calls for employers to lay people off but it occurs with enough regularity for it to be a cause for concern. Effectively what these people are doing is taking advantage of free speech to express the wish to restrict it for others.

I agree with a lot of the critiques leveled at the far-right and conservatism but the methodology that is currently being employed by the far-left to combat these issues is not likely going to result in an optimal solution.
It was a less of a jibe and more of a commentary on how sometimes the left can go too far, not say of course that the right can't either.

On the topic of free speech, I am generally of the view that we should let those who wish to utter hateful things do so and let everybody hear them, since this is the best way to ensure that what they are saying can be understood and then rejected. The problem with the (I'm going to use the term again since I'm not sure how else to categorise these people) regressive left right now is that it seems that they are intent on regulating hate speech, but here's the thing, who decides what constitutes as hate?
Over time we have seen that the problems that have arisen due to attempts at arbitrarily regulating hate speech have become somewhat worse than the problems that it was designed to tackle in the first place. People can make up their own minds about what they like and don't like and judge things accordingly, putting restrictions on the content of speech never seems to end well. I could even go so far as to say it's a insult to free inquiry to decide for somebody else what they can and cannot be allowed to hear or say, just on principle.
 

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I don't live, or have lived, in the US, but I consider myself a political junkie, so I'll add my two cents. I struggle to express my feelings concretely into words, so bear with me, please.




The problem with the Democrat/Republican thing, even if I nominally agree with your points about deep polarisation and lack of dialogue, is that the political spectrum of the USA is deeply to the right, when compared to Europe. Republicans are mostly corporate religious neoconservatives, Democrats are neoliberal economically, and socially liberal. There is no social democrat, let alone a socialist like Corbyn. Bernie Sanders is the only major player who you could call a social democrat (he calls himself a "democratic socialist", but his policies are social democratic). So a "middle ground" politician in the USA would be comparable to someone who is centre-right economically, like Angela Merkel or David Cameron, and with social policies that are adopted only by the most socially conservative wings of mainstream centre-right parties in Europe. That makes the Republican Party an extremely rightwing one. They are funded by billionaires (David Koch, Sheldon Adelson, etc.), who expect them to protect the interests of the rich. They have built a dark money network, and used the Senate's undemocratic make-up to install right-wing ideologues (from the Federalist Society group) on the Supreme Court and lower courts, who have struck down laws limiting billionaires from spending excessive amounts of money in elections (Citizens United v FEC), and struck down protections from voter suppression for minority populations (Shelby County v Holder). To achieve their goals of eliminating regulations on corporations, and cutting taxes for the wealthy, the Republicans ruthlessly rely on undemocratic means, voter suppression (prevalent in the South), demonisation of immigrants and deification of the military, along the occasional middle class tax cut (the 2017 tax bill cut taxes for the middle class temporarily, before raising them to above pre-2017 levels by 2024, while corporate tax cuts were permanent).
So when you call for "civil discourse" and reaching a "middle ground", that means negotiating with an undemocratic party controlled by the richest, to maybe reach a compromise that is well to the right of the political centre. And because more and more Democrats are realising this, they have started fighting as ruthlessly as the Republicans. But they will never reach the level of the Republicans, because, fundamentally, the Republican Party wants less federal government, ideally none at all (barring the military budget, because they also want to please their military-industrial complex overlords, but that's a story for another day), so they don't care if their tactics destroy public trust in the government, while Democrats believe in using government as a force for good, so they are careful to abuse its powers.
About so-called "cancel culture", to address Loco's jibe about "regressive left", I generally agree that ostracising someone because of their views is not good, unless those views are naturally repulsive. However, collectively organising boycotts and calling for someone to be fired is free speech. Right-wingers are happy to shout "free speech" and "1st amendment", but they don't like the taste of their own medicine.

And do you really think Trump will make it easier for you? His chief immigration adviser, Stephen Miller, openly wants to ban all immigration. He just doesn't have the chance to do so, thankfully.
Eliminating excessive regulations and taxes for small businesses is good. My dad is a business owner, I know the struggle. However, it must be offset by higher taxes on multibillionaires and big corporations, to prevent the quality and funding of public services from dropping, along with worker protection through higher minimum wage, and workers having a seat on the board of directors (without workers, no company can function, so a seat at the table where all the major decisions are made is only logical).
In furtherance of this, i know my language is partisan and direct. But the facts beneath are undisputed. Republicans simply frame them differently (falsely, imo). For example, they’ll say that racist voter suppression (like this, the failure of which didn’t deter them, proved by this) is done to "combat voter fraud". But then you look at the number of voter fraud cases in the recent past, and there were 24 cases from 2000 to 2014, out of hundreds of millions of votes cast. Voter fraud is extremely rare, and when i say extremely, i mean it.
 

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Well you need to be more specific as to the reasons why these boycotts and protests are happening in the first place. I agree that everybody has the right to peacefully protest, however a lot of these people are doing so because someone has said something they don't like and want to prevent them from doing so again even if they haven't done something they can be indicted for and furthermore want it enshrined in law. This isn't necessarily the case in all instances of boycott and calls for employers to lay people off but it occurs with enough regularity for it to be a cause for concern. Effectively what these people are doing is taking advantage of free speech to express the wish to restrict it for others.

I agree with a lot of the critiques leveled at the far-right and conservatism but the methodology that is currently being employed by the far-left to combat these issues is not likely going to result in an optimal solution.
It was a less of a jibe and more of a commentary on how sometimes the left can go too far, not say of course that the right can't either.

On the topic of free speech, I am generally of the view that we should let those who wish to utter hateful things do so and let everybody hear them, since this is the best way to ensure that what they are saying can be understood and then rejected. The problem with the (I'm going to use the term again since I'm not sure how else to categorise these people) regressive left right now is that it seems that they are intent on regulating hate speech, but here's the thing, who decides what constitutes as hate?
Over time we have seen that the problems that have arisen due to attempts at arbitrarily regulating hate speech have become somewhat worse than the problems that it was designed to tackle in the first place. People can make up their own minds about what they like and don't like and judge things accordingly, putting restrictions on the content of speech never seems to end well. I could even go so far as to say it's a insult to free inquiry to decide for somebody else what they can and cannot be allowed to hear or say, just on principle.
I agree with you. Let them air their nonsense openly, so it gets completely rejected. However I think it’s easy to classify hate speech. Attacking someone because of their race, ethnicity, nationality, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, political affiliation or religion. By attacking I don’t mean criticising. I mean calling for legal discrimination or violence (Republicans should be killed, Muslims shouldn’t vote). That shouldn’t be allowed, imo.
I don’t think the people you refer to want anything enshrined in law. Or if they do, that’s a small bubble of extreme leftists on Twitter, mostly.
Take the JK Rowling controversy. I don’t think Daniel Radcliffe or anyone else wanted her to be legally punished or jailed. They simply stated their disagreement with her statement. If their statement of disagreement brings non-legal consequences, then that’s just a by-product of free speech, just like anyone saying that vaccines are harmful to children, or Bill Gates will install microchips in everyone who gets vaccinated against COVID-19.
 

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