Nov 17-20: Australia A v England XI at Hobart

[Themer]

Why would he need a rest? He's played as much cricket as Panesar has. England just don't seem to want to pick him. They haven't given him a fair chance to prove himself.

He also came out and said that the rest would do him good along side his coach who also said the same things.

They've given Rashid a fair lick to be honest giving him quite a few ODIs and Twenty20 matches. Plus he's featured on quite a few tour matches. Hasn't fared very well when he's played in them as well.

Themer added 2 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

As a back-up you should go with someone with experience. Monty has bowled in Australia before, you know what you get. He'll keep it tight, get a few wickets here and there and possibly pick up some 5 wicket hauls.

This to be honest. I'd rather go in with someone who's solidish, will keep it tight and pick up a few wickets than someone who could go round the park.

 

[Papa_Smurf]

To be perfectly honest, apart from Swann, none of the current international spinners are as good as the pacers in their respective teams (except maybe bhaji).

 

[Themer]

(except maybe bhaji)

And even he's shite.

 

[Papa_Smurf]

And even he's shite.

Yeah, but so are the indian pacers

 

[War]

I don't see the credance in your statement of "useless tweaker" he has taken 8 5-wicket hauls, one of which was in Aus last time around, he's also been in pretty decent form for us last season. Of course he can never be a replacement for Swann, but he's good enough to warrant his place should the conditions suggest a spinner is needed.

By variety, I meant the spin option.

As a back-up you should go with someone with experience. Monty has bowled in Australia before, you know what you get. He'll keep it tight, get a few wickets here and there and possibly pick up some 5 wicket hauls.

I think Rashid is a great prospect, but lets not destroy another leg-spinner before his career has started. Give Monty his dues, he bowled well at Sussex this year and has got over 100 wickets and was our #1 spinner for a couple of years and had decent results.

This is such an inaccurate way of looking at things my friend. I dont even where to start.


Firstly by variety i mean quality variety in a test spinner that is 100% capable of utilising wearing tracks or a last turner againts good test batsmen. Monty Panesar does not have that ability currently, which is why he is useless tweaker as much as Hauritz was for AUS in the last 2 years & what Xavier Doherty likely will be.

So bascially again if Swann gets injured. Panesar will be a poor tactical replacements since he wont utilising the wearing or turning last-day tracks that Swann would be force in. AUS batsmen will play him easily, no way could he take 5 wickets againts AUS if he gets a helpul based based on recent evidence. Theirfore the better tactical selection is to pick the another paceman in either Tremlett or Shazad, who will be a farrrrr more wicket-taking threat than Panesar in a 4-man attack.

Panesar hasn't improved one bit, regardless of what he did @ Sussex. The Panesar who took 5 wickets in AUS in 2006 is completely different bowler then as he is now. He has lost that ability that made him a fairly solid test spinner from between IND 2006 - IND 2007 - that is fairly obvious from his recent performance in the A team game. His A Team performance is the same as poster Mark so eruditely put it:

I thought Monty bowled well but he bowled the same ol Monty style. Flat and fast and if he is hit for a boundary, then flatter and faster for the next few deliveries.

Thats the same old Monty that was struggling in test between IND 2007 - Cardiff 2009. He went back to Sussex & clearly nothing has changed.

 

[Themer]

Firstly by variety i mean quality variety in a test spinner that is 100% capable of utilising wearing tracks or a last turner againts good test batsmen. Monty Panesar does not have that ability currently, which is why he is useless tweaker as much as Hauritz was for AUS in the last 2 years & what Xavier Doherty likely will be.

But Monty has done it at test level and did bowl well during the tour match.

Themer added 1 Minutes and 47 Seconds later...

He has lost that ability that made him a fairly solid test spinner from between IND 2006 - IND 2007 - that is fairly obvious from his recent performance in the A team game. His A Team performance is the same as poster Mark so eruditely put it:

Monty has always bowled flat. No he hasn't really improved as a player but he has proven that his bowling is decent at test level.

Seriously averaging 34 is decent and doing a job.

 

[Sureshot]

Indeed, I don't think anyone is saying he'll replace what Swann does in the team. But you know what you'll get from Monty should he be needed to step in. The other options are Tredwell and Rashid, Rashid is explained above. Tredwell doesn't really do it for me, he had a poor season barring one innings and is an unknown at Test level.

 

[War]

But Monty has done it at test level and did bowl well during the tour match.

He did it @ test level as i said during the IND 2006 - IND 2007 when he was still bowling well. Before the IND batsmen exposed him & since then he has clearly regressed.

In the tour match i dont know what you consider bowling well. But i was looking for improvements as it was being suggested that he did after going back to county cricket & none @ that was seen. it was the same flat Monty that was struggling between IND 2007 - Cardiff 2009.

Themer added 1 Minutes and 47 Seconds later...

Monty has always bowled flat. No he hasn't really improved as a player but he has proven that his bowling is decent at test level.

Seriously averaging 34 is decent and doing a job.

Ye his bowling has always been flat & in his 1st year of test batsmen didn't adjust to him well, which is why he was so good then. But after IND batsmen exposed him for that lack of variety in test in 2007 he has struggled to adjust.

His 34 average seriously flatters him.

War added 5 Minutes and 23 Seconds later...

Indeed, I don't think anyone is saying he'll replace what Swann does in the team. But you know what you'll get from Monty should he be needed to step in. The other options are Tredwell and Rashid, Rashid is explained above. Tredwell doesn't really do it for me, he had a poor season barring one innings and is an unknown at Test level.

Neither am i suggesting he will or could replace what Swann does in the team. Losing Swann would be catastrophic & you could say he is basically irreplaceable for ENG, if he got injured.

What we know we will get from Panesar. Is not a test quality spinner. Its a spinner that will not be effective/highly unlikely to be effective @ utlising turning wickets againts the AUS batsmen. The other two options in Tredwell & Rashid are even worse @ that, since they are horribly short of test quality.

Which is why NO other spinner should have been in the Ashes squad except for Swann & why if Swann where to get injured. Another fast bowler in Tremlett or Shazad is best tactical replacement. Really its quite simple fellas.

 

[Sureshot]

Go on, have another try at being more condescending.

 

[War]

Go on, have another try at being more condescending.

. Oh so now i'm being condescending. But wasn't it you who started this statement by saying this:

http://www.planetcricket.org/forums/1991979-post168.html

What are you blabbering on about now? Monty bowled pretty well and caused them plenty of trouble and could've easily taken more than 3 wickets.

What can be more condescending than that?. Now that your argument for Panesar has been torn that threads, you are acusing me of being condescending?. Get over yourself.

. Some of you posters (fellow English posters) here have a weird way of acusing people of displaying a patronizing superior attitude in my posts. Thus mixing that up with a normal stating of opinion.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

To be fair War, you aren't stating your opinion so much as trying to shove it down Sureshot's throat.

 

[Highlander999]

Yeah I only really read Cricket Chat ever so often these days and you certainly put your opinion across rather......forcefully should we say?

 

[War]

Well i apologise to anyone who may see my posting style, as one where i am trying to force my POV down anyones throat.

Since that is never my intention when debating with anyone. I respectfully debate with everyone.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Not very respectful with your arguments.


And an open minded debate means you should be open to accepting you're wrong. You won't do that.


Monty has bowled well according to all the reports I've read so far. You're the only one who has said otherwise.

Keeping things tight, flattish trajectory, that's Monty's style and brought him success last season. I'm sure the selectors knew that when they picked him. There aren't any better alternatives to a backup spinner at the moment, so Monty's on tour. If England need two spinners, or if the conditions call for some spin and Swann's injured, Monty will play and I'm sure England's plans will revolve around the fact that Monty contains better than he attacks.

 

[angryangy]

I think Monty is mostly there if they want to play two spinners. Obviously, England don't have any obvious back-up spinner who is anywhere near as good as Swann, so who they pick in that circumstance is probably not very relevant.