Ashes debate thread.

[genghis_khan]

Vaughan does play well in Australia though...he was an absolute run-machine in the 2002-03 Ashes Series.

 

[evertonfan]

England are depleted, and if they bring their current team to Australia, I doubt that they would be able to even save a test...(ok i know that a bit harsh)
I see no way that England can keep the Ashes this winter. Australia are desperate, they want it more, they're at home, I just don't see England beating them.
Firstly, England fans are complaining that Vaughn will not be fit and theyre treating it like it's a huge blow. Ok, what im about to say is really going to get me bombarded by the england fans...but....ill say it anyways.....Vaughn is soooo overrated its not even funny. I agree he is a good captain, but Flintoff is nearly as good as captaining. Vaughn as a batsman is better than no other bat on his team, barring Chris read. Alaistair Cook can makeup for the runs that Vaughn would have scored, or would not have scored... Bell, Cook, Trescothic, Strauss, Flintoff, Petersen, Collingwood are all better batsmen that Vaughn.

If England are to challenge Australia, they need Simon Jones fit. They need Hoggard, Harmison, S.Jones, and Flintoff fit ready. Ashley Giles can provide useful runs at no.8, but his bowling is about as good as your average 17 year old indian kid. He would not find a spot on any other test team besides for Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. The guy is a bits and pieces cricketer, Penesar would be a much better choise, sure maybe each game Englands total would be 10 or 15 runs less, or maybe not... but Penesar would be 10 times more dangerous that Giles, and would help his team pick up more wickets.

If England can have bring the exact same team that won the ashes, then I think they would give Australia a challenge.....but I still strongly believe that Australia will eat them for breakfast.

Have you ever watched England? FLintoff as good a captain as Vaughan? I don't think so.

And did you happen to see how Vaughan performed the last time we went down under?

 

[FreddieFan]

England, currently, have a good side. Not as good as the side that won the Ashes last ear, but a good side nevertheless. We're expecting to get Flintoff back, which will make us even stronger. The one weak link in the side at the moment is Sajid Mahmood. The key for us in the 2005 Ashes is there were no bowlers the Aussies were scoring easy runs against (apart from Giles, on occasion, but I expect Monty to play in Australia so that bears no relevance). Mahmood simply isn't bowling well at the moment, as will conceed runs in Australia in the same way Tait and Gillespie were put to the sword by the English batters.

The way I see it, we can't just drop Mahmood for Flintoff, leaving us with 6 specialist batsman, plus Freddie and Read/Jones, because, although the Aussies relied, very successfully on a 4 man attack for a long tim, it will surely result in over-bowling Flintoff, unless Panesar bowls brilliantly in Australia and keep and end tied up.

So, the obvious solution is to bring in Simon Jones or Anderson, is they're fit, for Mahmood and Freddie for one of the batsman, but which one will provide a real headache for the selectors. Trescothick, Strauss, Pietersen and Cook, I presume, will be classed as 'undroppable', leaving Collingwood and Bell, both of whom are performing very well in the Pakistan series.

I'd also like to see Strauss as captain, in an attempt to stop Freddie doing too much.

 

[brad352]

And did you happen to see how Vaughan performed the last time we went down under?

Did you see how he's performed in 66 innings since then?

 

[evertonfan]

Did you see how he's performed in 66 innings since then?

Yes, indeed I did; He did pretty well.

 

[brad352]

Yes, indeed I did; He did pretty well.

2252 runs @ 36.92, averaged 32.6 last Ashes series- clearly a massive loss.

 

[FreddieFan]

2252 runs @ 36.92, averaged 32.6 last Ashes series- clearly a massive loss.

Maybe not as a batsman, but as a captain he's worth a good 60 or 70 runs a match, in my opinion. Brearly springs to mind.

 

[brad352]

Maybe not as a batsman, but as a captain he's worth a good 60 or 70 runs a match, in my opinion. Brearly springs to mind.

I'll have to take your word for it, the only strong memory I have of his captaincy is him drawing the third test for us with ridiculously defensive fields

 

[FreddieFan]

I'll have to take your word for it, the only strong memory I have of his captaincy is him drawing the third test for us with ridiculously defensive fields

My abiding memory was the Aussies first innings at Edgbaston last year - he had two men in no-mans land on the off side, and Hayden picked out Strauss, first ball. Also, he kept a man on the cover boundary when Australia needed about 4 to win in the same match, which prevented an Australian victory off one shot by Lee - and Harmison took the last wicket a couple of balls later.

Off the field, he and Duncan Fletcher have dargged English cricket into the 21st Century, in terms of fitness, preparation etc.

Also, the stats you helpfully provided show that, as captain, he averages 37 in test cricket. 37 is a very respectable average, within a few runs (I believe) of England great Mike Atherton's career average. People seem to judge Vaughan harshly because his average as captain is lower than his average otherwise, but there aren't many players in England who could average 37 in test cricket.

 

[Skater]

I think there's a chance that Phil Jacques could be in ahead of Justin Langer at Brisbane. That would be diabolical by the selectors. Langer is by far the best batsman of the two and he can score a century to win a match for Australia.

 

[MUFC1987]

I think there's a chance that Phil Jacques could be in ahead of Justin Langer at Brisbane. That would be diabolical by the selectors. Langer is by far the best batsman of the two and he can score a century to win a match for Australia.

Indeed, Hayden should be put out to pasture before Langer, despite being older.

 

[Kal-El]

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/columnists/story/0,,1835957,00.html

McGrath fires pointless scattergun shots in a phoney war
McGrath's blatherings - described in some quarters as "traditional", as if they were up there with the Melbourne Cup and Anzac Day - habitually take the form of a series prediction, usually 5-0 to Australia, or the latest players he intends to "target" with the ball. This is intended to be oh so scary, which once, when he was in his pomp, it might have been, but now, coming from a fellow rising 37 who won't have bowled for the best part of a year and when he does will do so at around Paul Collingwood's pace, carries the physical and mental threat of Private Pike

It's funny, experts constantly write off McGrath, yet when they do he comes back and dominates

Englands already scared of McGrath

EDIT: Cheers Andrew, hadn't seen the rules for posting articles.

 

[aussie1st]

The last Ashes Vaughan showed what he could do. His captaincy far outwitted Ponting's, his plans were spot on for each Aussie batsmen. Also the fact he brought England to beating the Aussies after losing the Ashes in 12 days last time around says something about his captaincy.

Our openers will be the same as the last Ashes for the first test.

 

[zreh]

The last Ashes Vaughan showed what he could do. His captaincy far outwitted Ponting's, his plans were spot on for each Aussie batsmen. Also the fact he brought England to beating the Aussies after losing the Ashes in 12 days last time around says something about his captaincy.

Our openers will be the same as the last Ashes for the first test.

You're over hyping him. Yes Vaughan is a very good captain, probably the best in world cricket right now, but just becuase he won the ashes, people exagerate his effect and influence on the team. Like i said in an earlier post, his batting is circumspect. He is so inconsistent its not even funny, There is no way that Vaughan would be on anyteam just for his batting. Yet England have him, because he is a good captain...and thats about it.

Ponting has the brain size of my 2 year old dog, but he is one hell of a batsman, miles and miles and miles.........and miles ahead of Vaughan. Ponting, just plain out, cant captain. If Australia select someone like Langer or Gilchrist as captain, I am 100% certain that Australia will retain the ashes, if they dont (and they wont), then i am 90% sure that Australia will retain the ashes

Vaughan is too overrated, the guy is an above average first class batsman, as far as international standards go...well you have already heard what i think of him as a batsman

 

[tassiefan]

If Vaughan was sucha great innovator in captaincy,how come he lost in Pakistan?
He should have won that series.