England

[aussie1st]

Discussion for England's T20 campaign. Use http://www.planetcricket.org/forums...roup-d-england-ireland-west-indies-65544.html to discuss the group matches.

 

[Paki007]

i have been a big fan of english cricket and i hope they'll put up a good fight this timearound

 

[War]

Picking Michael Yardy & leaving out Shah was a disgrace.

 

[pcfan123]

Shah has had his chances, he is a hack. At least Yardy provides a part time bowling option as well.

 

[War]

Shah has had his chances, he is a hack. At least Yardy provides a part time bowling option as well.

Ha, sometimes i dont get why people dislike Shah. Okay after the Champions Trophy last season he lost his place in the ODI starting XI for the South African tour, with the emergence of Morgan & Trott because of his running between the wicket issues. Fair enough on that.

But how & why in god's name was he dropped from the ODI & T20 team all-together for the South African tour for a hopeless ODI player like Alastiar Cook?. Especially if you look beyond his running between the wickets & fielding issues for a minute - when Shah was recalled to ODI side for the 2007 home summer & held down a regular place in the ODI set-up between 2007 - 2009 (Champions trophy). He averaged 35. Which probably only KP & Collingwood would have a comparable or better ODI record amongst England batsman during that period. How did that warrant being dropped from both the ODI & T20 teams ahead for Cook??:doh

Plus we fast-forward to the T20 WC squad here. Now i dont know if the selectors where watching the IPL. But Shah batted very well in the games he played for Kolkatta Kinght Riders & for all the huff & puff about his fielding & running between the wickets woes. I dont recall any commentator making a fuss about it. Neither did i notice it as a problem & trust me i was looking at that closelyyyy..

Shah should be in the squad instead of Bopara. Since Bopara for me if he is playing he has to open - if not he is useless in a T20 XI - based on IPL form only one of Bopara or Lumb should have been picked in the T20 squad my opinion. So with Lumb being the preffered choice to open with Kieswetter. Shah would have been the perfect man to play in the middle-order since he is hitter & given many of the oppossition teams are likely to pick alot of spinners on the likely slow Caribbean wickets. Shah is very good at hitting spinners instead of getting tied down by them druing the middle-overs.

This is what i said about why Yardy shouldn't be in the team in another thread. See here

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

I'm with you War. I think with Yardy you've got a hack in both disciplines. The english T20 competition is really low standard and no stock should be given to performances in it (as was shown in the champions league where the english teams looked miles behind the best teams from south africa, australia, west indies).

Shah is one of those terminally unpopular england players, kind of like onions is becoming, or sidebottom or swann a few years ago. Only really given a chance when the selectors backs are against the wall and they'd look bad passing them by. I mean, he got what, 2 matches? Bell was allowed a run of 6 months or so of crud form, and it only took him about 4 or 5 matches to get back in the team.

Dunno why Prior isn't in the team.

 

[King Pietersen]

Dunno why Prior isn't in the team.

You're joking right? Kieswetter offers FAR more with the bat than Matt Prior. Prior's a dire Limited Overs cricketer, and shouldn't be anywhere near the ODi or T20 teams.

As for Shah, I can't be bothered to argue about it, but Shah certainly wouldn't get in my team, and given the conditions and his performances last year Michael Yardy would. Don't understand why there's this sudden belief that runs or wickets in the English domestic don't count for anything. Sure the standard isn't Sheffield Shield standard, but it's not that bad. Yardy had an excellent season, I believe could do a very good job given his record last year and after watching him bowl. Hopefully he'll get the chance to prove people wrong.

People seem to be forgetting the 1 man that should definitely be in this squad ahead of Bopara and Shah too. Jonathan Trott. What more does the bloke need to do? 525 T20 runs last season at 65 with a strike rate of 132. Sure his strike-rate in T20i's hasn't been great, but the bloke deserves more of a chance than he's been given. One of the better Limited Overs players in England and yet it's Shah that's being talked about. Surely if our domestic system was so weak Shah would have done better last season than 287 runs at 26 with a strike rate of 115? Mark Pettini had a much better T20 season ffs. In ODi's Shah's a fair enough shout, but he hasn't performed for Middlesex, doesn't have a great T20i record, and his reputation for being dire running between the wickets and in the field means there are better options. Looking decent in a dire KKR line-up in just 5 games shouldn't be enough to get him an International spot.

 

[War]

Don't understand why there's this sudden belief that runs or wickets in the English domestic don't count for anything. Sure the standard isn't Sheffield Shield standard, but it's not that bad.

It counts for nothing & is indeed that bad because after 18 years of shockingly mediorcre performances in ODI & T20 since the 1992 World Cup. Its painstakingly obvious the standard of limited overs in England is very mediocre.

- Their has hardly been any 90 mph new-ball bowlers list A cricket, just alot of crap/average medium pace bowlers. That is why in the last 18 years we have had many players/openers not being able to translate List A performances @ international level i.e Ali Brown, Mal Loye, Darren Maddy, Solanki, Vaughan, Bell, Prior, Atherton, G Jones, Cook, Mustard.

In almost 20 years we have just have 3 top-class ODI standard opners in Trescothick, Knight & Robin Smith (while Stewart & Strauss where/have been servicable).

- Secondly we have the endless line of joke county all-rounders who have done well in domestic cricket, but haven't translated the success @ int'l level. Matthew Fleming, Douggie Brown, Blackwell (although he could still play for ENG again), Mark Alleyne, Irani, The Hollioke brothers (RIP Ben), Luke Wright, Dalrymple & Yardy. I reckon i missed somebody.

Only Flintoff has be a WC all-round in ODI's for ENG in almost 20 years. While the likes of Craig White, Ealham, Mascarenhas where/have been decent ODI all-rounders.

- Lack of much quality 90 mph quick bowlers & quakity spinners has also affected our standard of bowling. I can count the amount of quality ODI bowlers we have had in the last 18 years on my hand. Gough, Flintoff, Caddick, Swann. While Anderson & Broad are improving, plus Mullally was fairly solid back in thelate 90s.

That is why not all performaces in list A cricket can be taken seriously anymore. Perfomrances needs to be taken with great a pinch of salt. It is very possible for the selectors to just watch a player bat or bowl & make a fair gauge whether he would international quality. Instead of not learning from the past & picking the same joke type players over & over like what the ENG selectors have contiously done in almost two decades.

Yardy had an excellent season, I believe could do a very good job given his record last year and after watching him bowl. Hopefully he'll get the chance to prove people wrong.

Yes KP. As i said before even me as critic of Yardy has acknowledged that Yardy bowling can have some use in the windies. But you have not answered my question from the other thread. What about his batting?. As i said he is not a hitter nor a late order finisher, so by batting him @ # 6 or 7 he will be a waste of time. His overall package that he brings to the T20 side is poor, how is that not obvious?

People seem to be forgetting the 1 man that should definitely be in this squad ahead of Bopara and Shah too. Jonathan Trott. What more does the bloke need to do? 525 T20 runs last season at 65 with a strike rate of 132. Sure his strike-rate in T20i's hasn't been great, but the bloke deserves more of a chance than he's been given. One of the better Limited Overs players in England and yet it's Shah that's being talked about. Surely if our domestic system was so weak Shah would have done better last season than 287 runs at 26 with a strike rate of 115? Mark Pettini had a much better T20 season ffs. In ODi's Shah's a fair enough shout, but he hasn't performed for Middlesex, doesn't have a great T20i record, and his reputation for being dire running between the wickets and in the field means there are better options. Looking decent in a dire KKR line-up in just 5 games shouldn't be enough to get him an International spot.

I dont think Trott not playing in the T20 is such a big deal to be honest. As we saw with Trott during those T20s in Dubai earlier this year, he is an anchor type opener & not the type that will really take advantage of the first 6 overs. Which will likely be key in the caribbean, especially if alot of teams employ their quality spinners through the middle-overs.

Thats why Lumb was picked to partner Kieswetter. Like Bopara, Trott doesn't make sense in a T20 XI unless he is opening. But yes Trott should have still been in the squad at least ahead of Bopara IMO.

Shah's domestic record aint relevant. He has performed @ international level. He doesn't need to go back & prove anything on the domestic circuit. Before he was stupidy axed from the ODI & T20 team last year for Alastair Cook of all people:doh. Shah had been averaging 35, when Shah was recalled to ODI side for the 2007 home summer & held down a regular place in the ODI set-up between 2007 - 2009 (Champions trophy). If you wanted to drop him from the ODI starting XI because of running & fielding woes with the emergence of Morgan & Trott last year - that was understandable. But it was idiotic to drop him the ODI & T20 squads alltogether especially when the replacement was Alastair Cook.

If the batting line-up was:

Lumb
Kieswetter
KP
Morgan
Collingwood
Shah

How is Shah would have been the perfect man to play in the middle-order? Especially given many of the oppossition teams are likely to pick alot of spinners on the likely slow Caribbean wickets. Shah is very good at hitting spinners instead of getting tied down by them druing the middle-overs. These are skills Bopara or Trott don't have & in such a situation the spin would clearly tie them down - which is not what you need in a T20.

Plus you & other Shah critics reallyyyy need to find a new argument to ridicule him other than his fielding & running issues. It is NOT as bad as you people are making it seem. Again is ask you, if it was THAT HORRIBLE dont you think it would have been noticeable in the IPL & the commentators would have highlighted it. Have you & other critics possibly considered that his running & fielding issues justttt possibly could have improved in the last few months???

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

You're joking right? Kieswetter offers FAR more with the bat than Matt Prior. Prior's a dire Limited Overs cricketer, and shouldn't be anywhere near the ODi or T20 teams.

there is no way you can say that for sure, he's played bangladesh in one series. there is no backup wicketkeeper, and it's a gamble not taking one and going solely with a totally untested young guy who might well be a total failure.

 

[Themer]

Matt Prior is already a total failure in the shorter formats of the game; might aswell go for someone whos been scoring at a high strike rate and has some runs behind him in this format.

 

[King Pietersen]

there is no way you can say that for sure, he's played bangladesh in one series. there is no backup wicketkeeper, and it's a gamble not taking one and going solely with a totally untested young guy who might well be a total failure.

Prior's not even done it for Sussex. Has a dire record in Limited overs cricket for them, especially in T20 cricket. Kieswetter has performed for Somerset, did brilliantly for the Lions and then did well in Bangladesh. He might be a total failure, but Prior has been a total failure and has been deservedly dropped. Prior wouldn't even be my back-up keeper in T20's. I'd go with either Davies or Foster.

As for Shah. Don't see why you're bringing ODi's into this. It's a T20 tournament. Sure Shah's fielding and running 'might' have improved, but it won't be at a level good enough for him to be playing T20's. His batting hasn't been anything note-worthy, he flopped for Middlesex last year and 5 games for KKR isn't enough for him to get into the squad, or enough to prove that his fielding is suddenly International standard. In ODi's Shah is a fair enough shout, in T20's I don't think so. I'm far happier with Wright at 6 and Yardy offering his left-arm spinners down at 7. Yardy's done decently finishing the innings in the 2 T20i innings he played, and his bowling has definitely improved since then. He offers the side far more in T20 than Shah would.

 

[War]

Prior's not even done it for Sussex. Has a dire record in Limited overs cricket for them, especially in T20 cricket. Kieswetter has performed for Somerset, did brilliantly for the Lions and then did well in Bangladesh. He might be a total failure, but Prior has been a total failure and has been deservedly dropped. Prior wouldn't even be my back-up keeper in T20's. I'd go with either Davies or Foster.

As for Shah. Don't see why you're bringing ODi's into this. It's a T20 tournament. Sure Shah's fielding and running 'might' have improved, but it won't be at a level good enough for him to be playing T20's. His batting hasn't been anything note-worthy, he flopped for Middlesex last year and 5 games for KKR isn't enough for him to get into the squad, or enough to prove that his fielding is suddenly International standard. In ODi's Shah is a fair enough shout, in T20's I don't think so. I'm far happier with Wright at 6 and Yardy offering his left-arm spinners down at 7. Yardy's done decently finishing the innings in the 2 T20i innings he played, and his bowling has definitely improved since then. He offers the side far more in T20 than Shah would.

I mentioned ODIs because i was reminding you that he was axed totally from both the ODI & T20 team after the Champions trophy last year. Which was ridiculous as i've mentioned before, given how much was averaging over a two year period. He wasn't dropped because he was out of form - it was because of his "so called" running & fielding issues. So if he is to be recalled, all Shah has needed to do in the last 6 months since his axing is improve his fielding & running right?.

I dont understand how you can say his batting hasn't been anything note-worthy. Firslty you say he didn't do much Middlesex last year & you say the 5 games he played in the IPL wasn't good enough to earn a recall.

Firsly KP my friend, you do realize that IPL has a higher standard of T20 cricket our local T20 competition right?. So if he flopped is weak English T20 - but impressed in the higher quality IPL. Thats another clear sign that his batting is still ready to handle international quality bowling.

Plus as i asked before. If the 5 games he played in the IPL with the commentators not highlighting Shah's fielding or runnings issues isn't a good enough sign that he has improved in that area?. Then what more proof should we be looking for?

I'm interested to hear that you think Shah would be better in ODIs than in T20s. In a full-strenght ENG ODI team (with Flintoff playing)

Strauss/Lumb
Kieswetter
Trott
KP
Colly
Morgan
Flintoff
Mascarenhas/Bresnan
Swann
Broad
Anderson

I cant see how Shah would fit into this team. Even if Freddie doesn't play, Luke Wright although i dont rate him will come in.

But as i've showed before Shah would fit into the T20 team much easier, especially for the upcoming T20 world cup as the man to attack the spinners in the middle-overs. Very straightforward.



Finally on Yardy again. Those two international T20 innings Yardy played back in 06 & 07 vs PAK & WI (a utter joke windies attack here that will be much better in this years T20 WC) respectively, weren't very convincing at all. I remember watching those games saying..."get that man out of this team ASAP". The selectors were right to axe him back in 07 based on those performaces (along with his joke perfomances in the 2006 CT in India) from the T20 set-up. Recalling him is another one of the MANY doumb ODI & T20 selections that our wonderful selectors are known for.

You can't compare the impact Yardy could have with the bat @ # 6/7 againts international bowling. When the other nations will have players like Pollard/Bravo, Haddin/D Hussey, Morkel/Boucher, Pathan, Oram/Vettori, Razzaq..... *Sighs*

 

[pcfan123]

Firsly KP my friend, you do realize that IPL has a higher standard of T20 cricket our local T20 competition right?.

Whole heartidly disagree. Ive seen enough dropped catches and pie chuckers to last me a lifetime.

There only decent players in the IPL have been the Internationals

 

[shravi]

Whole heartidly disagree. Ive seen enough dropped catches and pie chuckers to last me a lifetime.

There only decent players in the IPL have been the Internationals

Ha, thanks for the laugh. Just look at the 2 teams in the finals. They are the 2 best teams because of the strength of their Indian players. Tendulkar, Rayudu, Tiwary, Harbhajan and Zaheer for Mumbai and Raina, Dhoni, Vijay, Ashwin and Badrinath for Chennai.

 

[pcfan123]

Those are all International cricketers!

edit: except maybe Rayudu and tiwari, not sure if they have caps