So this is something I have done with the future iteration of the game in mind and had compiled those ideas and views into a document which I have converted to image files for ease of reading.
The sole purpose of this thread is for us all to have a healthy discussion for the next version of game.. And we really can make a difference if we portray our logical and healthy ideas in a way we could reach to BA as we know they get involved with us in creating games..Lets bring those DBC 14 days back within us and make this thread fruitful..
Kindly go through all the pages of the document and let me know what you think..I will add the document to download as well if that interests few..Thanks in advance..
Note:Credits to @grkrama for engaging in conversation for the document..
So this is something I have done with the future iteration of the game in mind and had compiled those ideas and views into a document which I have converted to image files for ease of reading.
The sole purpose of this thread is for us all to have a healthy discussion for the next version of game.. And we really can make a difference if we portray our logical and healthy ideas in a way we could reach to BA as we know they get involved with us in creating games..Lets bring those DBC 14 days back within us and make this thread fruitful..
Kindly go through all the pages of the document and let me know what you think..I will add the document to download as well if that interests few..Thanks in advance..
So this is something I have done with the future iteration of the game in mind and had compiled those ideas and views into a document which I have converted to image files for ease of reading.
The sole purpose of this thread is for us all to have a healthy discussion for the next version of game.. And we really can make a difference if we portray our logical and healthy ideas in a way we could reach to BA as we know they get involved with us in creating games..Lets bring those DBC 14 days back within us and make this thread fruitful..
Kindly go through all the pages of the document and let me know what you think..I will add the document to download as well if that interests few..Thanks in advance..
All the ideas are amazing but the thing is can BA go to the level to achieve this? Do they have enough resources or knowledge? @BigAntStudios will only tell. I would love a world cup game.
i really like it mate. the proper seam position thing for bowling especially.
i do think however, that if there was a choice between re-engineered batting/bowling and (slightly enhanced) ashes AI, or (slightly enhanced) batting/bowling and re-engineered AI, i would always choose the re-engineered AI.
AI needs to play better, captain better, set fields better, change bowling. all ground-up re-work should really be focussed there, plus fixing pitch and stats issues.
another game with slightly different controls but all the other issues would be disappointing, to say the least. i'd rather them priotised.
I love the idea of some kind of Captain's Instructions before you go into bat or start a bowling spell. With a form of penalty for clearly ignoring them - e.g. less likely to be brought back onto bowl or even dropped for continuous offences. Being able, as captain, to give specific instructions would be great. Not something you have to do but there as an option if you wish to, so that it doesn't become a tiresome repetitive task unless you want it to be. Maybe there needs to be a mental skill - around reliability or judgement - so that you can distinguish which are you most reliable bowlers in terms of following instructions. It may be that lesser skilled bowlers can be more reliable in those crunch situations to carry out your instructions. Likewise, having your own reliability skill increase or decrease based upon your action would be great.
Fluid batting line ups would be a nice addition. Even if it was primarily a T20 thing, it's very common for aggression rather than skill as a determining factor in who comes into bat.
Front Foot and Back Foot skills should definitely be brought back, if I'm right they were in the original DBC game. As were Off Side and On Side skills. To they would be a great way or increasing the variety in how batsmen approach things - favouring certain areas of the pitch.
I think specialisms for bowlers would be a more nuanced way of implementing differences to bowlers than preferred slots. Ideally you'd want a bowler to be able to open the bowling and possibly bowl at another time. So for example they could be classed as New Ball Bowler and Death Bowler. The same for batsmen, it could be someone is a specialist T20 opener but bats in the middle/lower order in first class cricket (David Willey for example). These could be things included in a Skill Tree that you can unlock (see below for more on that).
I like the idea of merging the seam position and ball selection. I think the current way of doing it is somewhat cumbersome. I always look at it from the perspective of what does a bowler do at the start of their run up - they decide on the delivery, the line, the length - the effectiveness of what they want to do would then be determined by the mechanics at the crease. It often feels like it's too much weighed in one side of the other. I think pace bowling works very well with the stick mechanics but spin bowling not so much. I've never liked the rotation mechanic for the spin and think the amount of spin is better determined in the same way seam position is. As an example I use classic for Pace and standard for Spin bowling.
Personally I think reading from the hand is not necessary and potentially too complex to implement in a way that justifies the gain you'd get from it. Particularly when the markers already provide this information. While I don't use those markers I never feel the need for more information - although I think some big improvements to AI bowling are needed.
I'm not sure about coaches to be honest, but some kind of development tree would be a huge addition. I'm thinking primarily of the sorts of things you see in other types of games.
Using the skill tree in the image as an example; substitute the six sections with (Batting, Bowling, Fielding, Fitness, Mental and something else). You start as just an average club player; can bowl a little, can bat a little, can field a little. Depending on your chosen role perhaps stronger in one area. Then use achievements (first 50, first century, first five-for, first time being not out at the end of a successful run chase, getting a hat trick, every time you get 100, every time you get five wickets - there are dozens upon dozens of different ones I'm sure people could come up with) to give you Skill Mods, maybe some can only be used in a certain section but others can be used in any section and you boost your skills or specialism in this way. Just a thought, maybe the 'something else' could be 'Kit' so you can unlock new items of kit like licensed bats, your county cap or a number or initials on a jersey/cap. Maybe some 'mods' could be specific to a certain skill tree and other used in any one.
I think having a skill tree would create numerous different paths. You could for example, as a leg spinner, look to develop only your leg spinner and a slider and with each skill mod you can open up a new level - where your skill is increased.
So I knocked together an example (ignore the couple of obvious mistakes), including stuff like accuracy, drift, flight would be good too. Going further I'd like to see this as how you set up on-disk players rather than the numerical skill settings. I think it would be far more consistent because people are likely to agree that so-and-so is World Class at this but only County level at that rather than 94 at this but 54 at that. Under the hood would be a numerical figure but we wouldn't see it.
So when it came to career mode, if you choose to be a Leg Spinner, using the image as an example, you automatically unlock level 1 leg spinner but then choose another skill to unlock. It might be level 1 & 2 leg spinner or level 1 googly. Then you earn, by performances and achievements, the ability to unlock additional skill levels. It'd would allow lots of different paths to be taken, you could decide half way through you career to start unlocking batting skills instead of bowling ones and do a Steve Smith. Go from becoming a useless leg spinner to a world class batsman.
In addition to your leg spinner skills, when you embark on your career you can have 2 or 3 'unlocks' to be used in any section. So you could boost your bowling ability even more, increase your strength, stamina, cover drive, catching or maybe pick one of those specialist skills like 'death bowler'.
I love the idea of some kind of Captain's Instructions before you go into bat or start a bowling spell. With a form of penalty for clearly ignoring them - e.g. less likely to be brought back onto bowl or even dropped for continuous offences. Being able, as captain, to give specific instructions would be great. Not something you have to do but there as an option if you wish to, so that it doesn't become a tiresome repetitive task unless you want it to be. Maybe there needs to be a mental skill - around reliability or judgement - so that you can distinguish which are you most reliable bowlers in terms of following instructions. It may be that lesser skilled bowlers can be more reliable in those crunch situations to carry out your instructions. Likewise, having your own reliability skill increase or decrease based upon your action would be great.
Yeah, it should be an option maybe something like "Realistic" and "Casual" at the start of career.. Where realistic would be proper inn depth career and casual would be your laid back batting and bowling approach..
Fluid batting line ups would be a nice addition. Even if it was primarily a T20 thing, it's very common for aggression rather than skill as a determining factor in who comes into bat.
Front Foot and Back Foot skills should definitely be brought back, if I'm right they were in the original DBC game. As were Off Side and On Side skills. To they would be a great way or increasing the variety in how batsmen approach things - favouring certain areas of the pitch.
Yeah sending in a batsman based on the situation is really a thing I want for a long time..
Yeah I want to prioritise batsman stance and style so that they have their own style in the game..The system I had said is more to play with how batsman plays and his areas of shots which would be his favourite and go to zones which would differ with every batsman..Skilling and giving them the stance and footwork would be the way to give them their feel in the game..
I think specialisms for bowlers would be a more nuanced way of implementing differences to bowlers than preferred slots. Ideally you'd want a bowler to be able to open the bowling and possibly bowl at another time. So for example they could be classed as New Ball Bowler and Death Bowler. The same for batsmen, it could be someone is a specialist T20 opener but bats in the middle/lower order in first class cricket (David Willey for example). These could be things included in a Skill Tree that you can unlock (see below for more on that).
Yeah thats what I meant by preferred slots by being a new ball bowler or death bowler, but the reason I used slot is we could use them anywhere in that slot so its more random.. If set as a nature of bowler then the time they bowl would be fixed..I want to randomise based on the bowler of different teams , like if I have Ashwin in ODI , he can bowl in the first 10 overs and in middle overs as well as 1-2overs in death..So a meter for these slots can make it more clearer as to how much of that position they would prefer..Overall its just to randomise the periods they come in..
I dont want bowlers bowling strictly like coded like spin comes in at 16th over, which happens with Ashes..Some teams differ it but its more of a strict coding thing , I want to randomise it...
Personally I think reading from the hand is not necessary and potentially too complex to implement in a way that justifies the gain you'd get from it. Particularly when the markers already provide this information. While I don't use those markers I never feel the need for more information - although I think some big improvements to AI bowling are needed.
This is again something I have wanted since 14.. I dont want it to be too pronounced but the difference to show the deliveries from hand would be just great as I like to play without HUD and read from hand especially for spinners [though have been using HUD in Ashes]..And the thought of reading the googly from the hand and smashing it for four just makes it heavenly for me..
I think having a skill tree would create numerous different paths. You could for example, as a leg spinner, look to develop only your leg spinner and a slider and with each skill mod you can open up a new level - where your skill is increased.
The thing with career I would like is , if you wanna increase your skills in particular type of delivery, you need to bowl them more and get wickets or control runs with it to earn them, poor execution or sloppy deliveries smashed big you lose the point for that too.. Its a continuous process and thats how I see cricket, one can have consistency but having a bad patch also is part of game so its a process like Dhoni says ..You need to do it and repeat it everytime you are out on the field and thats how legends are made..With the skilling provided in such a fashion you are just need to be the bowler yourself and get the landing right..
Of course the AI plays a huge huge role in getting the balance right and making the feel "realistic" , so thats the reason ..
I really like the idea of a coach, I think theres something similar to that in AO tennis as you have to start with one of the club which has one skill on one of the four skill set..
i really like it mate. the proper seam position thing for bowling especially.
i do think however, that if there was a choice between re-engineered batting/bowling and (slightly enhanced) ashes AI, or (slightly enhanced) batting/bowling and re-engineered AI, i would always choose the re-engineered AI.
AI needs to play better, captain better, set fields better, change bowling. all ground-up re-work should really be focussed there, plus fixing pitch and stats issues.
another game with slightly different controls but all the other issues would be disappointing, to say the least. i'd rather them priotised.
I do agree, but we do need to push it in a way that they all come in a circle and the circle completes.. Its something that always bugs me with BA is that the games never see their optimum level best, maybe its the base engine issues that limits it , I dont know but I really want them to have a really strong base on departments to carry that and climb the steps with every game from there..
They create something really worthy and great to see in a game things but something pulls those good things back to really get those continuous long hours in the game like I used to do in DBC 14[Which is still an awesome game]..
Yeah thats what I meant by preferred slots by being a new ball bowler or death bowler, but the reason I used slot is we could use them anywhere in that slot so its more random.. If set as a nature of bowler then the time they bowl would be fixed..I want to randomise based on the bowler of different teams , like if I have Ashwin in ODI , he can bowl in the first 10 overs and in middle overs as well as 1-2overs in death..So a meter for these slots can make it more clearer as to how much of that position they would prefer..Overall its just to randomise the periods they come in..
I dont want bowlers bowling strictly like coded like spin comes in at 16th over, which happens with Ashes..Some teams differ it but its more of a strict coding thing , I want to randomise it...
I think having it as fixed elements wouldn't go hand in hand with not seeing a clear pattern. Like you say, they just come on at 16 overs, bowl for 4 and then come back on after another ten. You need something to keep it at least realistic, making it appropriate to format and conditions, too much randomisation could result in quick bowlers being over used in conditions that better suit spinners. I definitely think something could be done to improve how and when bowlers are used by the AI or to influence our decision making around which bowlers to bowl.
The thing with career I would like is , if you wanna increase your skills in particular type of delivery, you need to bowl them more and get wickets or control runs with it to earn them, poor execution or sloppy deliveries smashed big you lose the point for that too.. Its a continuous process and thats how I see cricket, one can have consistency but having a bad patch also is part of game so its a process like Dhoni says ..You need to do it and repeat it everytime you are out on the field and thats how legends are made..With the skilling provided in such a fashion you are just need to be the bowler yourself and get the landing right..
Of course the AI plays a huge huge role in getting the balance right and making the feel "realistic" , so thats the reason ..
I really like the idea of a coach, I think theres something similar to that in AO tennis as you have to start with one of the club which has one skill on one of the four skill set..
My problem with relating skill increase to how often you bowl a delivery or play a shot is that it just becomes a grind. It might be how you get better in real life but in terms of a game it just feels like a locked path and very repetitive. I'd say from my point of view it is already part of the game anyway, you become better just from playing the game. Your career player might not but you controlling them do. For me, a skill tree that is unlocked by achievement would be far more immersive in terms of creating the player you want. It wouldn't mean you don't have to get things right when bowling but you get rewards for success rather than endurance. I wouldn't necessarily see it as purely based on fixed achievements, it could be that for every 1000 runs you score you can use that to unlock a skill, likewise for every 50 wickets (or whatever the equivalent of 1000 runs is in terms of wickets). But at that same time you're not just playing game after game to get better. Achievements would unlock at different times every time you play. If you unlock a skill increase for scoring your first century, for some that might happen in the first game for others it could be ten games. in your first game you get you might start a game really well and advance quickly but then hit a plateau. If it's a case of just doing the same things over and over to increase your skills, I'd personally get bored. A skill tree, in my mind, adds replayability. Unlocks could be done in so many different ways that each time you start a career you might take on a different route.
I've not played AO Tennis so I don't know how it works. But thinking of the coach idea you suggested, it could be that a coach sets you a unique set of achievements to aim for in order to increase your skills. There could be your standard set achievements (score a century, beat your top score) in every game but each season a coach will give you a specific set of five challenges (score x number of centuries, be the top wicket taker in the league). For each one you achieve you might get a skill boost, achieve all five and you get bonus boost. It definitely add an element of outside influence on how you play and approach the game.
Say you go into the last game of the season needing a century to reach your season target and also be top run scorer, which will mean five achievements reached - unlocking three skills. But you might also find that you've ignored the captain so many times in the season that one more time and you might get dropped at the start of the next season (or whatever consequence). The captain tells you to go out and defend or occupy the crease. You end up in your own Kobayashi Maru scenario.
After I posted I thought that perhaps some unlocked skills could be time limited. So, if you get a man of the match, you can unlock a skill but it runs out after the next match or two. Even that some skills might only last for a season.
I should add, if I've been critical or picked things out it's not because I'm opposed to them or think they are necessarily a bad idea. I did print off your document and read through. I'm all for any kind of discussion and hopefully the good ideas that do come from it will be things that BA try to implement in any future games.
I should add, if I've been critical or picked things out it's not because I'm opposed to them or think they are necessarily a bad idea. I did print off your document and read through. I'm all for any kind of discussion and hopefully the good ideas that do come from it will be things that BA try to implement in any future games.
Personally I think reading from the hand is not necessary and potentially too complex to implement in a way that justifies the gain you'd get from it. Particularly when the markers already provide this information. While I don't use those markers I never feel the need for more information - although I think some big improvements to AI bowling are needed.
Ok, so I don't like the aerial marker because I feel like it gets in the way of watching the ball properly so I always want it off, and with regard to picking spin it presents the info backwards, imo.
Currently you don't really miss the ability to pick spinners even with the hud all switched off, but the closer the game gets to the reality of batting vs spin the more it's likely to be useful, depending on how late you can play your shot / how slow the bowling is.
Example : you're playing a legger bowling with good bounce and turn, and you get a ball a bit short of a length on off stick. So :
i) if it's the hard spun legger then the correct attacking shot is the square cut, maybe making a bit of room to the leg with your footwork.
ii) if it's the topspinner or flipper, the bowler is prob hoping you misread it as the legger and setup for the cut, then get out bowled or lb.
The thing is - in real life against a decent spinner it's a bit too late to spot the distinction when the ball bounces because you need your feet more or less in position by then, so you can only safely access those sorts of attacking shots by reading the release / flight (flight goes the reverse way to spin off the deck). If playing spin without picking it, you need to hedge your bets on footwork + shot selection and will need shorter/crappier deliveries to get cuts and pulls away.
DBC / Ashes spin has been very slow in every iteration so maybe there would still be time to play the ball off the deck in the game if they implemented this sort of gameplay fully, but I could see the value of a grip reading feature like MVP2005 if they bring spin up to a more realistic speed.
A release or grip hud could potentially model the difference between a top order batsman with the ability to read spin, and a lower order batsman who can't. That's a fairly important tactical sort of aspect, imo.
I think having it as fixed elements wouldn't go hand in hand with not seeing a clear pattern. Like you say, they just come on at 16 overs, bowl for 4 and then come back on after another ten. You need something to keep it at least realistic, making it appropriate to format and conditions, too much randomisation could result in quick bowlers being over used in conditions that better suit spinners. I definitely think something could be done to improve how and when bowlers are used by the AI or to influence our decision making around which bowlers to bowl.
I get your point but the thought of the slots in overs for when we create players which would have a meter and we would have to assign every individual while player creation alone..The part where AI uses up bowlers based on decisions on the pitch conditions and weather and stuff is upto AI getting better..So we need not mix it up.. I have mentioned that to have these added into the game the AI needs to be really good to mix the situations to get us a realistic result..
My problem with relating skill increase to how often you bowl a delivery or play a shot is that it just becomes a grind. It might be how you get better in real life but in terms of a game it just feels like a locked path and very repetitive. I'd say from my point of view it is already part of the game anyway, you become better just from playing the game. Your career player might not but you controlling them do. For me, a skill tree that is unlocked by achievement would be far more immersive in terms of creating the player you want. It wouldn't mean you don't have to get things right when bowling but you get rewards for success rather than endurance. I wouldn't necessarily see it as purely based on fixed achievements, it could be that for every 1000 runs you score you can use that to unlock a skill, likewise for every 50 wickets (or whatever the equivalent of 1000 runs is in terms of wickets). But at that same time you're not just playing game after game to get better. Achievements would unlock at different times every time you play. If you unlock a skill increase for scoring your first century, for some that might happen in the first game for others it could be ten games. in your first game you get you might start a game really well and advance quickly but then hit a plateau. If it's a case of just doing the same things over and over to increase your skills, I'd personally get bored. A skill tree, in my mind, adds replayability. Unlocks could be done in so many different ways that each time you start a career you might take on a different route.
Thats how it is now, you get points for every match and you can assign them to skills, one thing which I really dislike in career.. It doesnt have the realistic approach to career.. Also why would it be a grind when you are just playing the game, its not compulsory to play a shot too, just build your game and the points are allotted as per the shots you play.. You get better in one zone and that skill gets really high and becomes a go-to shot for you.. Same with bowling , no compulsion to bowl this way or that way, have your own game but try completing the objective the captain asks during the course of the match for additional skillset maybe something called as "Reliability" skill which would increase whenever you fulfill the short objectives from captain..
The issue with the method you suggested is , it can be restarted and played to fulfill the objective to unlock the skill and whats there after all skills are unlocked.. Definitely that seem to be an issue for me.. The one with skills I suggested its a never ending process also I have said the amount of skills required to reach the next level, its a process that way and you become a better player, choose your shots and zone and play according to situation as you would get punished for not handling it well with skills , injury and selection into the team..
Also the skills method was there in DBC 14, we just need to add more spice and make it appreciable and punishable in career..
I like how new ways of approach are already getting out, thanks for that..That was the main purpose of me posting it here..Keep it coming...
@funnyadit I must admit I've not played career mode on Ashes, the feedback has put me off a little. My main issue is with how skills are currently handled and how I think a system of representing them with levels such as World Class, County, Club would be better unless BA were to thoroughly skill each player in a way that is at least consistent if not reflected on real life observations. It seems that skills were somewhat of an afterthought due to the wild inconsistencies. What we have at the moment is a situation where some people 'reduce skills to get a better game' and others 'increase this skill to get a better game.' Having players rated for each skill at a certain level could mean blanket adjustments by BA if, for example, it's not that World Class players are overpowered. So, World Class might equal 95/100 but if that's too high it can be reduced to 90.
The system I suggested I wouldn't see as any different as end game to what you have suggested, if you unlock all the skills how is that different to reaching 100 skill points? I'm sure there could be room for both ways of approaching it. The more options available to a player to approach the game the better in my view. I think something that adds individuality to players is needed, personally I think a skill tree could do that. Definitely slots/specialisms, whatever you want to call it we're in agreement, would be a boost to the game.
One of the big problems I see with how the game operates at the moment is adjustments to the AI are sweeping and I feel like there are little differences in teams that you play because they are all functioning largely to the same rules. I think expanding how individual players function would be one way of adding a little spice and variety.
@T.J.Hooker To be honest it's not really something I've considered in the game and my approach to spinners when I faced them was never 'what are they bowling' but how far can I hit them. That being said I find facing spin bowling to be one of the most irritating aspects of the game. Maybe that would at least be easier to judge if there was a different release for each delivery. I'd be able to see that off spinners are bowling five doosras an over. With the use of mo-cap I guess it would be interesting to see if it could be implemented.
My main issue is with how skills are currently handled and how I think a system of representing them with levels such as World Class, County, Club would be better unless BA were to thoroughly skill each player in a way that is at least consistent if not reflected on real life observations. It seems that skills were somewhat of an afterthought due to the wild inconsistencies. What we have at the moment is a situation where some people 'reduce skills to get a better game' and others 'increase this skill to get a better game.' Having players rated for each skill at a certain level could mean blanket adjustments by BA if, for example, it's not that World Class players are overpowered. So, World Class might equal 95/100 but if that's too high it can be reduced to 90.
I kind of feel casual game and career are being mixed up by you..The skills deduction and addition I was talking was totally for career gameplay.. For casual and other modes we need a balanced application how it would work.. The type of player as I had mentioned in the document would be there but apart from that skilling and points added to them needs to be seen how they are done.. For sure I want the game to play as it should on default , personally not a fan of playing with skill and attributes to get good gameplay.. Make it function right on default for teams and created teams as well..
The system I suggested I wouldn't see as any different as end game to what you have suggested, if you unlock all the skills how is that different to reaching 100 skill points?
I have implemented negative or deduction in skills on poor execution so you cannot be on 100 always..Also if injury happens we could reduce skills of every aspect by 10-15% as they would have to build on their again..Also bad shot, execution or getting hit on body reduces skill points..
One of the big problems I see with how the game operates at the moment is adjustments to the AI are sweeping and I feel like there are little differences in teams that you play because they are all functioning largely to the same rules. I think expanding how individual players function would be one way of adding a little spice and variety.
Agreed, team members need to have their own individuality in some way.. We can have different stance, different preferred foot movement and favourite zone and regions.. Skilling would vary them as well and attributes would play a huge role as well..
To be honest it's not really something I've considered in the game and my approach to spinners when I faced them was never 'what are they bowling' but how far can I hit them.
Which is basically like facing junk spin in real life. In low level games you can get away with it because the variations are only mildly different and it all happens fairly slowly.
Picking spinners is absolutely an integral part of proper batting vs spin though. Some pro batsmen report being able to pick the seam position / shiny side from seamers as well, but that's not a standard skill.
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