India tour of New Zealand 2019

ShamiLoverGlipGlops

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Irony is that Rohit Sharma wanted Indian batsman to face this situation of swinging conditions and apply themselves.
 

SaiSrini

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I have lived and breathed this sport for the past 25 years. I`m giving you an objective assessment of this side`s shortcomings. To claim that we have a fully equipped middle order in Rayudu, Karthik, Jadhav and MS Dhoni (current) is a claim that suits someone like Shastri but not reality. I`ve followed all sides with the same passion and can safely say that the current lineup is no comparison to Yuvraj, Dravid, Kaif/Raina and MSD (1.0) when it comes to sheer match-winning ability in crunch situations. And I`ve watched all those sides, even really crappy sides which had guys like Sujit Somasundar, Vikram Rathore and MSK Prasad.

Us denying the shortcomings is just a disaster waiting to happen. England were living in denial with regards to their test match top order and they have been exposed in the Caribbean. I can see something very similar happening to us in a WC knock-out game if this is all we have. I`d want to be proven wrong but this middle order has very little big-hitting pedigree and/or proven big match ability. Its our bowling that has ensured our success. We are a good fair-weather side but we have very little rough weather experience which is vital for winning big events. Its also why we have`t won any ICC events since 2013.

I`d like to know what someone like Sai or LiveLoveABD have to say about this.

I totally agree with what you've said, @aditya123 . The team that we had with Sehwag, Ganguly, Yuvraj, Kaif, Dravid, MSD (1.0) was far superior to the one that we have at the moment. At the current moment, we have way too many batsmen who do not find it easy to get going from the outset (Rayudu, Dhoni, to an extent even Jadhav). Dinesh Karthik finds it harder to pace the innings if he has to come out to bat before the slog overs actually start. And if India are in a delicate situation where they have lost wickets and Karthik needs to consolidate, his freedom to hit out is curbed and Karthik tends to perform below par in such situations.

As you said, we have a good "fair-weather" side but in a big tournament like the World Cup, there is bound to be that one match where we hit some really rough weather and I have a feeling that our seams could come apart rather rapidly at that moment. We just have to pray that such a moment does not happen at all. That moment happened to us in the final of CT2017 and that's why we ended up as runners of the tournament. Wish it had happened earlier in that tournament so that we could've woken up and smelled the coffee. But I have a feeling India is due for a change after the WC with Dhoni likely to finish. Also I think we are slowly moving away from a superstar-driven generation as the next generation seems to throw up a lot more quality that also the audience is spoilt for so much sporting entertainment that they wont be easily awed by one player and therefore the superstar-driven generation is likely to end with Dhoni/Yuvraj.

Irony is that Rohit Sharma wanted Indian batsman to face this situation of swinging conditions and apply themselves.

I feel what Rohit did at the toss and his reasoning was absolutely spot on. Yes the batsmen have not backed him, but he has done a great job. It was easy to pick bowling first and let NZ batsmen face the heat.

But my worry is that, these runs that Ambati Rayudu is scoring could do India more harm than good. With Dhoni being a sure shot in the XI, Rayudu also playing is going to slow us down and hit us in the gut when a crunch situation requires faster scoring. I just pray that Rayudu can switch gears faster in the WC.
 

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There is the problem with Rayudu. When he tries to up the ante in international cricket, he invariably gets out. He is the opposite of Dinesh Karthik, who is uncomfortable when he has to graft. Rayudu is comfortable at grafting.

I think Vijay Shankar has probably laid the Nidahas ghosts to rest. What he did was excellent and is instrumental for India not withering away to another 100 odd total. It would be good to see how he responds when India is in a good position and when Vijay Shankar is asked to press it hard and blast away to an enormous total. I think he is capable of doing it, as he was the finisher in the recent India-A tour of NZ and also he had a good great hits in the IPL (remember the game between Delhi and CSK where Shankar ran CSK perilously close in a 200+ chase.

Hardik has just showed that he is a MONSTER with the bat and why he is so highly regarded for the WC and why he was brought back from his suspension.
 
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ShamiLoverGlipGlops

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Did we really go from 4/18 to 252... Something you dont often see from this Indian side when Kohli is not around. Good anchored innings from Shanker and the last blows from Hardik was good to read.
 

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So much of drama there in the end. Horrible umpiring. A no-ball to Pandya was not called and that "one run short" that Pandya was penalized, was actually noticed by Boult and had to be relayed to the umpires.

Pandya was sensational and just bossed the death overs. With him around, India's lower order and slog overs batting looks more assured. Shankar was great today and probably instrumental in India reaching 250+.
 

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Finally an innings of substance by the middle order, although we should have been able to add 20 more runs if we accelerated a bit earlier.

Will need a spirited bowling performance now if we have to defend this, as this is not close to a winning total
 

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To claim that we have a fully equipped middle order in Rayudu, Karthik, Jadhav and MS Dhoni (current) is a claim that suits someone like Shastri but not reality.

Being well-equipped in terms of balance means when our batting is average our bowling steps up and when we don't bowl well our batters have assured we don't go down without a fight. Well I can say 2017 Champions Trophy final is actually the reason why I believe we can go one step ahead as we have experienced one of our worst scenarios and we still made sure we are confident enough to dominate the oppositions and that's what makes this side better the the ones we had previously. I extremely agree that the quality of our side doesn't come close to the one which had Sachin, Ganguly, Dravid, Sehwag, Laxman and Yuvraj but what's different is the attitude. The current attitude is like they have something which helps them recover quickly from failures. You might've seen the worst of players but when I actually started watching Cricket our confidence came down to the lowest point where we actually struggled to make use of home advantage and were defeated by our greatest strength in the past (spin bowling). I've seen India get whitewashed in England and Australia 4-0 with the best side they had. And have seen India struggling to chase 250 at home. I've followed the entire transition phase of this team closely that is what makes me feel confident. This side is such that everyone in this side i.e the one who are experienced, the one who are at their peak and the ones coming into this side wants to dominate
 

abhi_jacko

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And have seen India struggling to chase 250 at home. I've followed the entire transition phase of this team closely that is what makes me feel confident. This side is such that everyone in this side i.e the one who are experienced, the one who are at their peak and the ones coming into this side wants to dominate

Well friend, I think we would struggle to chase 250+ runs in the 4th innings of a test in seam or spin friendly conditions even with this line up. Especially with this line. Get Pujara, Rahane and Kohli and the rest will fold up in no time. The phase you are talking about was anything but our peak - it was a time when the batting line up was struggling with an identity crisis in the face of a fast changing game.
 

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Yuvraj and Kaif, in their prime along with Rahul Dravid were clinical finishers. Dhoni and Raina joined the lot in the mid 2000s.

I think its really funny to compare a middle order with Dravid, Raina, Yuvi, Kaif, Dhoni 1.0 with the current lot. Both on skills and on experience to play in tough conditions. This line up was one that never gave the opposition any respite and mind you the opposition bowling line ups were a lot tougher than what we have today. And yet they would churn out match winning innings again and again. If Yuvi, Kaif, Raina, MSD stayed on for 40-+ deliveries, it was a guarantee that they would end up with a SR of 100+ and a match winning total (even for our average bowling line up)

And it was not just the middle order. We also had a very solid lower order that could be counted upon to hit a few lust blows towards the end of the innings and in crunch situations - Pathan, Bhajji, Zak have all done it on a few occasions. Just cannot expected that from Shami, Bumrah, Kuldeep, Yuzvendra, Bhuvi.

I still think we are one of the favorites for the World Cup and should definitely get to the knockouts. But one bad day in the knockouts can still happen as has been happening since 2011 World Cup. Hoping that it doesnt and we go all the way.
 

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If we win this game, I think it will give us a lot of confidence

I wish we could have arranged a tri series or quadrangular series instead of thr pointless T20 series' we are going to be playing after this game
 

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Well friend, I think we would struggle to chase 250+ runs in the 4th innings of a test in seam or spin friendly conditions even with this line up.

Was referring to ODIs to be precise the ODI series against Pakistan as well as England at home back in 2012-13
 
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abhi_jacko

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Was referring to ODIs to be clear the ODI series against Pakistan as well as England at home back in 2012-13
Are u sure ?

Which series against Pak?

In the England ODIs at home we lost only one game while chasing and that was when we were chasing a score of 325. Still came quite close

And mind you, 250 in 2011 is 300 today. And once we lost Kohli, do you have the confidence that we can chase down a 300+ score with this middle and lower middle order
 
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NILAYSHAH60

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Are u sure ?

Which series against Pak?

The series in which Pakistan smashed us 2-1 when Junaid Khan ran through our top order while Nasir Jamshed smashed our bowlers like anything hitting 2 centuries and a half century also was rewarded with Man of the series while MS Dhoni was one of the lone batsman for India who scored more than 50 runs in the entire series with Ashwin and Jadeja to follow

In the England ODIs at home we lost only one game while chasing and that was when we were chasing a score of 325. Still came quite close

But we struggled each time when we came onto bat luckily there was someone who stayed right till the end which gaves us confidence to go on to win matches and a big tournament like Champions Trophy

And mind you, 250 in 2011 is 300 today.

But I was talking about 2013 and not 2011. In 2013 Australia smashed 300+ each time when they came to India. Hope you remember

And once we lost Kohli, do you have the confidence that we can chase down a 300+ score with this middle and lower middle order

If one batsman stays out there with Rohit Sharma and ups the scoring rate after getting set we can do it. And remember Kedar Jadhav's 100 against England back in 2017 where he stayed out there even after Kohli was dismissed with 90+ runs required in about 12-13 overs[DOUBLEPOST=1549180565][/DOUBLEPOST]
With this middle and lower middle order

They got us past 250 being 18/4 today. And we still are pretty much into this match :thumbs
 

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I've an eerie feeling that Grandhomme will go berserk today.
 

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